Obamacare... 'Affordable'???

I am not an Obama fan either. I was upset that he caved so easily on a true socialized health care system (i.e. single payer) and I think his actions on the war on terror are deeply morally troubling.

I do think he is better than Romney would have been, but that doesn't make me a fan.

things become clearer



or perhaps whiter

He is right. If fewer Blacks and Hispanics voted, conservatives would win more elections.

Now if only there were a way to keep Blacks and Hispanics from voting....

Quote to me where I called you a "shill"?

I was just warning people that they are out there.

Huh?

Thank you for that.

I had insurance coverage for some years at my university, and again in another bunch of years in a place that I left as I found found the owner abusive to others at the same time I was interested in other ways of living besides under that guy with no window, and went back to school, as I'd been taking art for years after work anyway. I might be rich if I'd stayed there a bit more to be vested, not long, but I didn't want to be there. Not kidding, that became a big business, I missed out, I was asked to manager the place and said no, re the owner's persona. I might have made a different decision if we had children, but we didn't.

Skipping along, I've a fair education including by myself.

Later I became insurance poor.

For my part, I was extremely skeptical of Obamacare when I first heard what it entailed -- forcing people to buy insurance. I felt sure that no poor people would buy insurance, that they would be forced to pay fines instead, and that the result of the personal mandates would essentially be to levy a regressive "head tax" on poorer Americans. Later I heard that government would subsidize the poor in their insurance purchases, and I calmed down a bit. Initially I was worried insurance companies would use the fact the people were going to be forced to buy, to gouge profits out of us. (I seem to recall Keith Olbermann being equally furious with the Democrats in Congress.) But later I learned there would limits on how much money they could make. There are parts that still bother me -- the employer mandate, for instance.

But I'm for giving it chance to work. I have little patience with people who seem to be going out of their way to sabotage it by scaring others off the exchanges with reports about "nightmarish" experiences. They seem intent on spreading fear.

I know I wasn't going to come back. I didn't want to, but after the movie I got curious what was said after I left.

I will try and clear up some things that others have said after.

I didn't want Obama in the 1st term, but I didn't have a problem when he won either. I thought... here's a smart, young guy that seems confident in a plan.. change. I didn't believe he was going to do very well... I knew Bush did a crap job. As his 1st term progressed, I wasn't a fan. While he did okay sometimes with what he was dealt, I just felt he didn't deserve a 2nd term (yeah, and you can say the same about Bush).

I know there are a lot of problems with the healthcare system. It's WAY too expensive. Costs do need to be lowered. Being a business owner, I do not understand why it hasn't been a priority in the past to make the system more affordable and more fair to business owners and their families. Why is it that if you work for a large employer, you can get much better pricing than if you are self-employed? I remember asking the question once... why can't we group the people in the same sort of career into a money-saving healthcare group? Why not group all dentists together? Or florists... or lawn care guys... or plumbers? Why is it that people that own small business have always had to pay a lot more... because they couldn't get a group discount. I was even told once that there's a law or rule forbidding groups from forming specifically to save money by getting a group discount... WHY?

I not here trying to sabotage Obamacare. I have to say I don't like the 'sticker shock' which I heard a lot of people making a lot less money were getting when they saw how much the premiums and deductibles are. The difference is that the sticker shock was short-lived with them (once they realized how much subsidy they would eventually get) but with people like me it's a reality.

I didn't make anything up. The income I presented was real. Last year we made exactly $89,346 MAGI. Last year I paid $22,200 in taxes... give or take a couple of dollars. Federal was $18,600 and state was $3,600. We paid over $15,000 in loan repayment between my wife and I... the bulk was towards my loans. We could only claim $2,500 as that's the rule... up to $2,500 for interest paid... which is a joke when you consider it should be considered a business expense because college is needed for me to run my business. Just another way for the government to screw us... but taking something that's such an expense, year after year for probably the rest of my life and pretending like it's something other than a business expense. Legislation has to be changed on this.

Obama has said some things and they might ring true for some, but they certainly don't ring true for me. He said we would be enjoying savings of $2,500 or more with Obamacare. Not true for me. While we didn't have insurance prior to this because that too was deemed to expensive for us, it wasn't as high as the prices we are seeing now. We looked into it. For BCBS for our family it was going to cost $850 a month with an individual $2,500 deductible or $5,000 family deductible. So you're looking at $10,200 in premiums and possibly $5,000 for the family... or $15,200 as a total. With Obamacare kicking in, it's looking like the costs are going to be $791 for the premium with a $5,000 deductible each... or family deductible of $10,250 for a total of $9,492 plus $10,250 = $19,742. That's a difference of over $4,500. That's how much more the Obamacare care is going to cost... and I thought before it was expensive. Now it's forced right down our throats or we have to pay a penalty which by the next year or two is going to cost us a couple of thousand dollars. Like anyone likes throwing away a couple of thousand dollars anytime.

The insurance guy I went to told me he's got a great plan that he's had for more than 10 years. He said... remember Obama saying you can keep your plan? Well that's kinda true and kinda not. He said you can keep your plan IF you've had it more than three years... I think starting from Oct 1st when Obamacare launched on the website. He said his current plan which he'll be able to keep is about half (both in premium and in deductible)... current $560 premium... going up to $1,150 for Obamacare. Family deductible current $5,000... Obamacare $10,250. He also told me that some of his clients started their insurance just short of three years ago... missing the cut-off by days or weeks in some cases and wanting to pull their hair knowing they will have to change over to the doubled price next year. He did say that anyone that signs up for plans by Dec 1st this year will be able to get some plans for about half the price... because those prices don't regulate until next year. So that's something to think about.

Anyway... but the real reason I came here in the first place... Why is it so puzzling for democrats... liberals.. Obama fans... whatever you want to call yourselves... why it's puzzling that paying so much more for care than others irritates us, and that you don't believe that's possible. Is it really that hard to understand? Why does there have to be some sort of hidden agenda?

Say for instance you were making $35,000 a year.. family of four. And you were told that you're sudsidies were going to pay for all your costs... and you were going to get free coverage for all in your family. Then, all of a sudden Obama changes the rules and says... we've done the statics and decided any family of four making under $30,000 will now get free coverage. You find out later your costs will now be $500 a month with a $3,000 individual and $6,000 family deductible. Would you be thrilled about the turn of events? Thrilled that you have to pay $6,000 in premiums and a possible deductible of $6,000? But wait a minute... that's a possible $12,000 of the $35,000 that my family makes. I can't afford that? Oh.... but sure you can... you just need to make the right choices in your life. It's irresponsible not to buy insurance... regardless of cost. You need to have the right priorities in your life, even if it means selling all your possessions... your cars... getting rid of services you don't need to live on... cutting back on lighting, energy. You don't need a cell phone.... or internet.

I can understand why people that will be getting dirt cheap insurance because of the subsidies are excited. I get it... that's not hard to understand to me. I get why people that had pre-existing conditions are excited... good for them.

Where Obamacare fails for me is that I think EVERYONE should pay something. Minimum costs for a family of four should be $100 a month... if not you get a fine. Costs for a family of four making $30,000 shouldn't be FREE... it should sting a little... $300 a month with a family deductible of $2,500. That way, people like me don't have to pay $20,000ish before healthcare kicks in and pays any of our bills. I would be okay if our costs would be something like $600 premium per month with a $2,500 individual and $5,000 family deductible... I could live with that. We could manage that into our budget without having it be life altering. Then we'd be talking a cost of $7,200 plus $5,000... $12,200. I think that's about the point where anything more than that and you start to think... is it really worth it?

I'm going to look at the catastrophic plans, because at the current projected prices of Obamacare costing $20,000 before they even pay anything, I might just be better off saving money and then buying catastrophic plans where the deductible is $50,000 or something and just paying out-of-pocket for any healthcare that comes out way.

if a family making nearly $100k a year does not need to pay most of the freight for their medical care then pretty much no one does. do you realize how much more you make than most people? why should you get to slop at the government subsidy trough like those who you are envious of?

I think your anger is misplaced. It was the Republicans who refused single payer and the insurance companies who insisted on the individual mandate. The ACA is not at all a perfect system. Even as a libertarian-leaning independent, I'm much more in favor of single payer than what we ended up with. We still may get there some day.

Of course you aren't in favor of being forced to get insurance. But, what you don't seem to see, is that folks like you who didn't carry insurance are part of the reason the costs are so high. You don't value insurance. I don't value insurance companies. I think they're a pox on society; a necessary evil.

Osso mentioned in a earlier post about becoming insurance poor. That's certainly a situation for some families on the cusps of the cutoffs for public support. Everyone should pay something? Like $100/month? Some families eat on $100/month.

Catastrophic coverage may be the best solution for you and your family.

"if a family making nearly $100k a year does not need to pay most of the freight for their medical care then pretty much no one does. do you realize how much more you make than most people? why should you get to slop at the government subsidy trough like those who you are envious of?"

Again, this is why I gave the stats... which again, I'd like you to look at and tell me that you think this is fair.

My family of four made $89,346.
We were taxed $18,600 federal.
We were taxed $3,600 state.
If we made the same amount next year, our share before the government even pays a dime for healthcare will be $19,742.

Add those above figures together = $41,942

Now consider I owe close to $200,000 in student loans. My wife over $150,000 in student loans. We paid last year $15,000 in repayment.

Take $15,000 and add it to the $41,942 = $56,942

Subtract $56,942 from our income of $89,346 = $32,404

So when you consider three things 1) taxes, 2) healthcare and 3) student loan repayment are costs that the lower income people pay nothing for... or near nothing for, then it pretty much evens everything out right? So why did I take the big risks to go to school? Do you have any idea what it feels like to owe so much money and think... we may never get out of debt? Our interest for just out loans builds at over $700 a month... that's just the amount we have to pay for it to continue to go down. We spent eight years going through college (in Iowa Mr. hawkeye10) and during that eight years have very little ability to work (full time college load was considered 20 to 30 credits) which didn't leave much time for working.

Now... out of that remaining $32,404 we need to pay our bills. We have an average house... 1,850 sq ft... cost $197,500 three years ago... our mortgage per month = $1,200 which is $14,400

I would say it costs about a $1,000 average for food and household items for a family of four per month... wouldn't you say? There's $12,000.

Electricity... averages about $200 a month = $2,400

Car insurance for both wife and myself is about $170 a month = $2040

Add those costs up and subtract them from the $32,404 (which was again left from taxes paid... our insurance liability and our student loan repayment... $32,404 - $30,840 = $1,564

Just those bills knock us down to = $1,564.

That's if we ended up having to pay the full amount of liability towards insurance... the almost $20,000 for insurance.

I didn't even add on a ton of other bills... for cable/internet/tv ($150ish... $1,800 a year)... cell phones ($150 ish... $1,800 a year)... car payments $400 total for two cars... $5,000 for the year... gas for the cars... $200 a month... $2,400 a year... gifts for birthdays, christmas... credit cards owed... trying to save ANY MONEY for retirement or for college for the kids. And god forbid if anything needed to be replaced... like the AC and heater unit we're going to have to replace within a year (we've delayed it for two years now)... $6,000ish.

If you do the math, it would be impossible for us to fit in a nearly $20,000 insuance payment... IF we ended up paying the $9,492 plus the $10,250 family deductible. Costs closer t0 $12,000 would be about the best we could do... and even then we'd be close to the max.

My rant is based on having to pay $22,200 for taxes where someone that is making $40,000 or less has to pay a fraction of.

My rant is based on having to pay the first $20,000 of any healthcare costs... and then 25% of the next few thousand until we hit the total out-of-pocket of $12,500.

My rant is based on having to pay $15,000 in student loans annually (supposedly they'll even go up over the coming years).

Add those three rants together (things lower income people have to pay nothing for or near nothing) and it pretty much evens everything out doesn't it? So again.. why did I go to school forever? Why did I go so far in debt and risk so much?

Apparently it wasn't neccessary, all I had to do was finish high school or go take a few community college courses somewhere and then let the government even it out with freebies and subsidies.

I'm not saying we shouldn't pay more... I agree we should. But my argument is the people making less should have to pay into the system too. They should have to worry about the possibility of a fine. Shouldn't they have to sweat some too? A family of four making $25,000... $30,000... have them pay $250-$300 a month for healthcare. Have them have a $1,000 a person deductible or $2,500. What would that do? It would drastically bring down the costs because of two things. One, they wouldn't use the system unless they needed to because they would try and avoid having to pay the deductibles if they could. Two, it would put more money into the system through the premiums so others like me wouldn't have to pay as much.

Like I said before... I think we could live with $650... $700 a month premiums... but the deductibles... $5,000 a PERSON or $10,250 for a family are out of control.

I think it's only fair to have more balance rather than the same 47% that don't pay ANY federal taxes also get free health insurance... wouldn't you???

Eliminate Medicare recipients who by and large contributed to Medicare their entire working lives from that 47%. May of those 47% do pay payroll taxes (SS and Medicare) as does anyone who earns a paycheck. You've got an awful lot of Republican talking points spewed in your posts that simply don't reflect reality.

So, eliminate the profit margins required by the insurance companies out of the total and you'll have a more balanced system. Single payer, baby!

"Apparently it wasn't neccessary, all I had to do was finish high school or go take a few community college courses somewhere and then let the government even it out with freebies and subsidies. "



you took freebies from the government so you could attend college, jackass...

In case any one didn't notice, he's also adding two years of taxes together and subtracting it from his annual income.

$1,000 a month to feed a family of four? That's $250 per person. I know many a family that would be thrilled to have more than $250 a month to feed their family of four.

He's paying $1200 a month on a $200k mortgage? Something wrong there.

According to the WSJ on 10/12/13 the interest rate for a 30 year mortgage is 4.28%

For a $200K loan, that's about $990 a month.
Add on the insurance, and property taxes, which are usually added into your payment, $1200 a month seems pretty normal.

In fact, according to Zillow, if you had a $200k mortgage, estimating property taxes in, your monthly payment, if you could manage to get a rate of 2.3%, the payment would be $1,200/mo

Were you indicating the $1200 amount was low, or high?

Also, he didn't say it cost 1,000 a month to Feed his family, he included household expenses also. To me, that could include a lot of stuff.

A couple of years ago, I kept all my receipts from the grocery store for an entire year. There's 2 adults in my household. Overall, after a year, the weekly expense for things I bought from the grocery store, food, detergent, cleaning supplies, the occassional other item like replacements for things in the kitchen....it averaged over the year just around $100 a week. I'm not in any way an extravegent shopper, I buy the fruit that's on sale, comparison shop, don't buy cookies, snack food etc. It just turned out that way when you include things that are not food.

That wasn't even including pet food, litter, which I get a Pet Smart. Just last week, we stocked up on 5 big boxes of litter, and a case of canned food, and some other small thing I can't remember, something necessary though, and it rang up for I remember $109.

Honestly, I haven't read much of this thread. Some of the numbers he quoted in that post I could question, or say hey, you can lower that. But I'm not going to bash someone if they say they aren't going to risk high blood pressure eathing ramen noodles, or an angioplasty by eating cheap fatty food.

Just because you know many of family that would be thrilled to have $250 a month for FOOD for a family of 4 doesn't mean everyone has to put themselves in that place. It's not like some badge of honor to go through life having to scrimp and scrap your plate to get enough to eat.

I'm sure if every one of us wrote down our budgets, someone could point out item(s) that would seem to them silly or excessive.

Carry on...

I think you should read some more of his/her posts...

Yeah, I get it, he's a wack job.

However, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I guess it just got my attention that when some actually pretty reasonable numbers were run, they are called into dispute.

From the one post I referenced, I didn't see much that was that out of line.

I don't like that getting my own insurance in January, if I don't have insurance through a job, is going to cost me something like $3000 a year, but I can afford it by being careful. If something unexpected happened, it'll be even harder.
Some people have other bills they have to pay, and it's putting them in staits. I get that.

I get what JPB and ehBeth are saying. I'm just going with life's flow, and trying not to have a heart attack or stroke.

Life can tough.

Stuff costs money. Everyone's stuff costs a different amount.

I'd say that's pretty average.

His school loans are killing him. $1500/month is more than his mortgage.