6
   

Any Decent Republicans Out There?

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 10:53 am
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
Okay. You have a good day too. I was ready to be educated by you about the UN Security Council, but you are evidently shrinking away from this opportunity.


Imagine that, Tico the grand lead coward of A2K, admonishing another.

Quote:
Since you have not identified the UN Security Council Resolution where it allegedly "voted against the war in 2003," are you at least willing to admit you're full of bullshit?


The UN Security Council does not have to vote against an invasion. Invasions without that permission are war crimes. They have to vote for an invasion. How does a "lawyer" miss such an elementary notion?

The UN Security Council never gave the US authorization for its illegal invasion of Iraq.

Quote:


http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0820-04.htm#1

Published in the August 2002 Foreign Policy In Focus policy report
Seven Fallacies of U.S. Plans to Invade Iraq
by Stephen Zunes

...

1. A War Against Iraq Would Be Illegal

There is no legal justification for U.S. military action against Iraq.

Iraq is currently in violation of part of one section of UN Security Council Resolution 687 (and a series of subsequent resolutions reiterating that segment) requiring full cooperation with United Nations inspectors ensuring that Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, delivery systems, and facilities for manufacturing such weapons are destroyed. The conflict regarding access for UN inspectors and possible Iraqi procurement of weapons of mass destruction has always been an issue involving the Iraqi government and the United Nations, not an impasse between Iraq and the United States. Although UN Security Council Resolution 687 was the most detailed in the world body’s history, no military enforcement mechanisms were specified. Nor did the Security Council specify any military enforcement mechanisms in subsequent resolutions. As is normally the case when it is determined that governments violate all or part of UN resolutions, any decision about the enforcement of its resolutions is a matter for the UN Security Council as a whole—not for any one member of the council.

The most explicit warning to Iraq regarding its noncompliance came in UN Security Council Resolution 1154. Although this resolution warned Iraq of the “severest consequences” if it continued its refusal to comply, the Security Council declared that it alone had the authority to “ensure implementation of this resolution and peace and security in the area.”

According to articles 41 and 42 of the United Nations Charter, no member state has the right to enforce any resolution militarily unless the UN Security Council determines that there has been a material breach of its resolution, decides that all nonmilitary means of enforcement have been exhausted, and then specifically authorizes the use of military force. This is what the Security Council did in November 1990 with Resolution 678 in response to Iraq’s ongoing occupation of Kuwait in violation of a series of resolutions passed that August. The UN has not done so for any subsequent violations involving Iraq or any other government.

If the United States can unilaterally claim the right to invade Iraq due to that country’s violation of UN Security Council resolutions, other Security Council members could logically also claim the right to invade other member states that are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions. For example, Russia could claim the right to invade Israel, France could claim the right to invade Turkey, and Great Britain could claim the right to invade Morocco, simply because those targeted governments are also violating UN Security Council resolutions. The U.S. insistence on the right to attack unilaterally could seriously undermine the principle of collective security and the authority of the United Nations and in doing so would open the door to international anarchy.

International law is quite clear about when military force is allowed. In addition to the aforementioned case of UN Security Council authorization, the only other time that any member state is allowed to use armed force is described in Article 51, which states that it is permissible for “individual or collective self-defense” against “armed attack ... until the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.” If Iraq’s neighbors were attacked or feared an imminent attack from Iraq, any of these countries could call on the United States to help, pending a Security Council decision authorizing the use of force. But they have not appealed to the Security Council, because they have not felt threatened by Iraq.

Based on evidence that the Bush administration has made public, there does not appear to be anything close to sufficient legal grounds for the United States to convince the Security Council to approve the use of military force against Iraq in U.S. self-defense. This may explain why the Bush administration has thus far refused to go before the United Nations on this matter. Unless the United States gets such authorization, any such attack on Iraq would be illegal and would be viewed by most members of the international community as an act of aggression. In contrast to the Persian Gulf War of 1990-91, it is likely that the world community would view the United States—not Iraq—as the international outlaw.

There is little debate regarding the nefarious nature of the Iraqi regime, but this has never been a legal ground for invasion. When Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1978 to overthrow the Khmer Rouge—a radical communist movement even more brutal than the regime of Saddam Hussein—the United States condemned the action before the United Nations as an act of aggression and a violation of international law. The United States successfully led an international effort to impose sanctions against Vietnam and insisted that the UN recognize the Khmer Rouge as the legitimate government of Cambodia for more than a decade after their leaders were forced out of the capital into remote jungle areas. Similarly, the United States challenged three of its closest allies—Great Britain, France, and Israel—before the United Nations in 1956 when they invaded Egypt in an attempt to overthrow the radical anti-Western regime of Gamal Abdul-Nasser. The Eisenhower administration insisted that international law and the UN Charter must be upheld by all nations regardless of their relations with the United States. It now appears that the leadership of both political parties is ready to reverse what was once a bipartisan consensus.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0820-04.htm#1

0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 11:21 am
@Ticomaya,
You know as well as I do that no matter what I say, your conclusions are drawn already.



I notice you've latched on to the one thing, thinking you see a chink in the armour.
Res. 1441 was passed to put extreme pressure on Saddam, The US used that to invade but most legal experts believe a 2nd Res. was needed before an invasion was legal.
The UN continuously vetoed (that's voting against by the way) the US's attempts to go to war, they passed 16 resolutions but continuously refused to agree to war.
Where were you, do you not remember Rumsfeld, Powell running around trying to scrap up support for the war everywhere they could. Not doing to well either.
I suppose you didn't notice the millions worldwide marching against the war either.



Now how's about putting some thought to the lies told to the American public to legitimise this war.
And while your at it put some thought to the completely inept way the war was waged. Nothing short of criminal the way America went into that war and no excuses, like I said before they knew well in advance this war was going to happen.



Now Tico, I am getting of this roundabout, like I said I wish you well and good luck.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 11:49 am
@eurocelticyankee,
Quote:
Where were you, do you not remember Rumsfeld, Powell running around trying to scrap up support for the war everywhere they could. Not doing to well either.


Here's some of that typically scummy behavior that is part and parcel of the US.


Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War

United Nations Security Council and the Iraq War

...

Many people also felt that many of the governments that had aligned themselves with the US, despite strong opposition among their populations, did so because of their own economic ties to the United States. The United States used strong pressure and threats against other nations to attempt to coerce nations on the Security Council to support them.

For example, Mexican diplomats complained that talks with US officials had been "hostile in tone", and had shown little concern for the Mexican government's need to accommodate the overwhelmingly anti-war sentiment of its people. One Mexican diplomat reported that the US told them that "any country that doesn't go along with us will be paying a very heavy price."

The Institute for Policy Studies published a report[6] analyzing what it called the "arm-twisting offensive" by the United States government to get nations to support it. Although President Bush described nations supporting him as the "coalition of the willing", the report concluded that it was more accurately described as a "coalition of the coerced." According to the report, most nations supporting Bush "were recruited through coercion, bullying, and bribery."

The techniques used to pressure nations to support the United States included a variety of incentives including:
*Promises of aid and loan guarantees to nations who supported the US
*Promises of military assistance to nations who supported the US
*Threats to veto NATO membership applications for countries who don't do what the US asked
*Leveraging the size of the US export market and US influence over financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
*Deciding which countries receive trade benefits under such laws as the African *Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA) and the Free Trade Agreement (FTA), which, as one of its conditions for eligibility for such benefits, requires that a country does "not engage in activities that undermine United States national security interests".
*Deciding what countries it should buy petroleum from in stocking its strategic reserves. The US has exerted such pressure on several oil-exporting nations, such as Mexico.

At a press conference, the White House press corps broke out in laughter when Ari Fleischer denied that "the leaders of other nations are buyable".

In addition to the above tactics, the British newspaper The Observer published an investigative report revealing that the National Security Agency of the United States was conducting a secret surveillance operation directed at intercepting the telephone and email communications of several Security Council diplomats, both in their offices and in their homes.

This campaign, the result of a directive by National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, was aimed primarily at the delegations from Angola, Cameroon, Chile, Mexico, Guinea and Pakistan. The investigative report cited an NSA memo which advised senior agency officials that it was "'mounting a surge' aimed at gleaning information not only on how delegations on the Security Council will vote on any second resolution on Iraq, but also 'policies', 'negotiating positions', 'alliances' and 'dependencies' - the 'whole gamut of information that could give US policymakers an edge in obtaining results favourable to US goals or to head off surprises'." [7]


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 11:52 am
@Ticomaya,
A number of "decent Republicans" have come forth in this thread. A "decent Republican" is defined as one who is willing to mislead, lie, create all manner of deception and diversion in order to hide the crimes of their nation.

A "decent Republican" can completely push out of their mind the death and destruction that the US has criminally heaped upon not only Iraq, but also, virtually every other country on the planet.

This curious definition of 'decent' also applies to a lot of Democrats, which further illustrates just how little difference there is between the two groups and parties.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 02:48 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
eurocelticyankee wrote:
You know as well as I do that no matter what I say, your conclusions are drawn already.

Of course I've drawn a conclusion. Just like you have.

Is your only goal here to try to change the minds of "indecent" Republicans?

Quote:
I notice you've latched on to the one thing, thinking you see a chink in the armour.

What "one thing"? You mean the "thing" yesterday where you strutted:

eurocelticyankee wrote:
I thought you were a legal eagle Dave, so I'm sure you're aware of International law, maybe not.

The Security Council voted against the war in 2003 so under the UN Charter that made going to war in Iraq illegal.

That "thing"? That line of utter bollocks that you are now trying to shrink from without so much of an admission of error on your part, or an apology to Dave? That "thing"?

So now -- evidently seeing your folly, even though you won't admit to it -- it appears your tune has changed from "the UN voted against the War, therefore it was illegal per the UN Charter," to "... but most legal experts believe a 2nd Res. was needed before an invasion was legal".

Sure, get off this roundabout. That's probably best.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 02:54 pm
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
Sure, get off this roundabout. That's probably best.


You'd love for that to happen, wouldn't you, Tico. Go ahead, crawl into your slimy little hole. That's where you belong.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 03:12 pm
@Ticomaya,
Yeah yeah sure, I answered your question, my answer may not suit you.
I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you, no?.
I'm entitled to my take on the subject as much as you.
At least I had the courtesy to answer.
Where as you've ignored every other point.

Which is a good thing really because I don't want to interact with you anymore.


You know the old saying; if you cant stand the.......
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 03:25 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
Quote:
Which is a good thing really because I don't want to interact with you anymore.


Too bad, ECY, just when you've got Tico at an eight count.

The issue is whether the US committed a war crime for illegally invading Iraq.

Quote:
War of aggression[edit]
The International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg held following World War II that the waging of a war of aggression is:
essentially an evil thing...to initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.[54]
Benjamin B. Ferencz was one of the chief prosecutors for the United States at the military trials of German officials following World War II, and a former law professor. In an interview given on August 25, 2006, Ferencz stated that not only Saddam Hussein should be tried, but also George W. Bush because the Iraq War had been begun by the U.S. without permission by the UN Security Council.[55] Benjamin B. Ferencz wrote the foreword for Michael Haas's book, George W. Bush, War Criminal?: The Bush Administration's Liability for 269 War Crimes.[56] Ferencz elaborated as follows:
a prima facie case can be made that the United States is guilty of the supreme crime against humanity, that being an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation.[57]
...
The United Nations charter has a provision which was agreed to by the United States, formulated by the United States, in fact, after World War II. It says that from now on, no nation can use armed force without the permission of the U.N. Security Council. They can use force in connection with self-defense, but a country can't use force in anticipation of self-defense. Regarding Iraq, the last Security Council resolution essentially said, "Look, send the weapons inspectors out to Iraq, have them come back and tell us what they've found -- then we'll figure out what we're going to do." The U.S. was impatient, and decided to invade Iraq -- which was all pre-arranged of course. So, the United States went to war, in violation of the charter.[57]
Professor Ferencz quoted the British deputy legal adviser to the Foreign Ministry who resigned suddenly before the Iraq war started, stating in her resignation letter:
I regret that I cannot agree that it is lawful to use force against Iraq without a second Security Council resolution. [A]n unlawful use of force on such a scale amounts to the crime of aggression; nor can I agree with such action in circumstances that are so detrimental to the international order and the rule of law.[57]
The invasion of Iraq was neither in self-defense against armed attack nor sanctioned by UN Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force by member states and thus constituted the crime of war of aggression, according to the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) in Geneva.[58][59] A "war waged without a clear mandate from the United Nations Security Council would constitute a flagrant violation of the prohibition of the use of force.” We note with “deep dismay that a small number of states are poised to launch an outright illegal invasion of Iraq, which amounts to a war of aggression.”[59][59][60]
Then Iraq Ambassador to the United Nations Mohammed Aldouri shared the view that the invasion was a violation of international law and constituted a war of aggression,[61] as did a number of American legal experts, including Marjorie Cohn, Professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law and president of the National Lawyers Guild[62] and former Attorney-General of the United States Ramsey Clark.[63]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War


Please help Tico to see the light. A lawyer should not be this ignorant.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 03:34 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
You are all arguing about nothing. A resolution means nothing without the means to enforce it. The U S of A, Russia, China, and several other nations can start them whenever they want. The only reason we arnt in a war in Syria is because a majority of the citizens in the U S of A are tired of them. International politics are just as crooked and dishonest as the U S of A politicians. So all you nationalistic apologists just keep on with the "it aint our fault bullshyt".
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 03:52 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
A resolution means nothing without the means to enforce it.


You shouldn't just be pointing fingers at the politicians, Rabel. Y'all purport to believe in the rule of law but y'all don't do anything about ensuring the rule of law is honored. The propaganda tells us that it's the people that are supposed to run government.

If you just want to pass this all off as "Okay, the US and all its citizenry are nothing but a bunch of amoral criminals,", well, so be it. But at least be honest enough to inform your children as to what their parents are.

Doesn't that also make you a nationalistic apologist?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 04:56 pm
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:
eurocelticyankee wrote:
You know as well as I do that no matter what I say, your conclusions are drawn already.

Of course I've drawn a conclusion. Just like you have.

Is your only goal here to try to change the minds of "indecent" Republicans?

Quote:
I notice you've latched on to the one thing, thinking you see a chink in the armour.

What "one thing"? You mean the "thing" yesterday where you strutted:

eurocelticyankee wrote:
I thought you were a legal eagle Dave, so I'm sure you're aware of International law, maybe not.

The Security Council voted against the war in 2003 so under the UN Charter that made going to war in Iraq illegal.

That "thing"? That line of utter bollocks that you are now trying to shrink from without so much of an admission of error on your part, or an apology to Dave? That "thing"?

So now -- evidently seeing your folly, even though you won't admit to it -- it appears your tune has changed from "the UN voted against the War, therefore it was illegal per the UN Charter," to "... but most legal experts believe a 2nd Res. was needed before an invasion was legal".

Sure, get off this roundabout. That's probably best.
I can see the logic of the UN's vote deciding
whether it is legal for THE UN to go to war or not,
but the UN cannot have any authority to determine
whether it is "legal" for one of its members (like us) to do so.
That wud be infringing upon the sovereignty of America.
Even the US Congress cannot do that, without a constitutional amendment.

Constitutional authority to declare war is vested in the Congress (Article I, Section 8).
However, the President can move the Army wherever he wants, outside the US
and among his powers is to order it to ATTACK (Article II).





David
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 05:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
but the UN cannot have any authority to determine
whether it is "legal" for one of its members (like us) to do so.
That wud be infringing upon the sovereignty of America.


David, the UN was the brainchild of Roosevelt. It was an American idea. It's main objective was to stop another Nazi Germany infringing on the sovereignty of others. You signed up to this from the beginning, you can't cry foul because it's a two edged sword.

Accepting International law necessitates some loss of sovereignty. I didn't hear you complaining about the Alabama arbitration. (Probably because neither of us were born at the time, but you get the idea.)
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 08:12 pm
Quote:
The Time Has Come to Say It out Loud

By John Gerassi
Global Research
June 17, 2003

The time has come to say it out loud. Most of my academic colleagues say it privately, but hedge in their classes. Many of my old buddies at Time and Newsweek, where I was an editor for a decade, agree, but tell me they can never say so in print. All my friends fear that if they spell it out the FBI will arrest them in the middle of the night and they will become "disappeared" like hundreds of innocent Moslems who are not even charged with a crime. They know that Attorney General Ashcroft is itching to use the proposed Patriots' Act II, which will certainly become law after US forces suffer casualties in Iraq, to deport native-born critics of the Administration to Antarctica or bury them in solitary confinement in the Arizona desert, as that law permits. But it is now time to say and act upon the fact that the United States, as a state, is Fascist.

We all know, and the media certainly can list the proofs, that those in power in Washington, Vice President Cheney, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and his deputy Wolfowitz, among others, plotted the current anti-Iraq policy years ago. In 1992 they actually wrote it up in a letter to Bush I. Even Ted Koppel read parts of that 96-page letter on Nightline the other day, proving that Bush II's War has nothing to do with 9/11 or al Qaeda or terrorism. In fact, President Reagan removed Iraq from the list of states sponsoring terror back in l982.

To those 1992 conspirators now making policy in the White House, adding up with Bush II as the world's new and dreaded Gang of Four, the goal was and is control of the whole region. Not just to own the oil and gas, but also to control their sale, in order to dictate which developing country the US will help and which it will sink into desperate poverty. After Iraq, they want to invade Iran. Then any other country, especially the oil-rich "...stans" surrounding the Caspian Sea if they balk at US demands and where the US now has bases.

No nation (certainly not Cuba) must be allowed to maintain an independent course, say the Gang of Four. The world's worst dictators (in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, Turkey, Kazakhstan et al) are acceptable if they trade by Washington's rules. If not, a "regime change" is the next move. Bush II's War on Iraq is only the beginning. It's part of what in polite circles is called Globalization. In real terms it's just plain Americanization.

Most Americans support Bush II and his Gang of Four. So did the Germans support Hitler. He won over 60 percent of the vote in a fair election. He repeated ad nausea that it was the others' fault and the Germans believed him. It was the Czechs who stole the Sudetenland, he said. Repeat it often, Goebels advised him, and the world will believe it. And now, he would advise Bush II, say over and over that Saddam gassed his own people in the village of Halapja and the world will believe it, even if the CIA's senior political analyst on Iraq at the time, who had access to the classified investigation of the incident, reported that it did not happen (NYT 10/31/03). The media said it did, without proof, almost every day since Bush said it during his State of the Union address. And again in his March 15 radio talk. Goebels would have been proud.

Both the CIA and the FBI found no connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Bush II said there was one. He offered no proof. So what. He repeated it so often most Americans believe it. That's like when daddy Bush said that Saddam was going to attack Saudi Arabia after Kuwait. Totally absurd, and everyone in the media knew it. Saddam may be a scumbag but he isn't mad. But the media repeated it so often most Americans, who don't even know where Saudi Arabia is, believed it.

To go against the Gang of Four is to be ostracized from Washington. The end of a Journalism Career. Notice Bush II's last press conference. Only those reporters on his "goodie" list could ask him questions. Those who usually pose tough questions were silenced. CBS's veteran reporter-anchorman Dan Rather admitted in a BBC interview on his way back from Iraq that even he was intimidated by the Gang of Four: "It's that fear that keeps journalists from asking the toughest of the tough questions."

Who is really threatened by Saddam? Israel? Saddam knows very well that if he attacks it Iraq will be permanently exterminated. The American people? How absolutely ludicrous: his longest range missiles, which according to the UN inspectors violated the 93 miles maximum by all of 30 miles, couldn't even reach the immense and oppressive US base on the Island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. So why do Americans support a bloodthirsty liar whose bombs kill children? Americans don't even know that the UN does not sanction the US/British bombing of Iraq's self-defense guns.

The sanctions that the US did force the UN to adopt have already killed more than half a million Iraqi children, as reported by the UN and Bill Moyers on Public Television. But we know from the My Lai massacre that American soldiers are trained to view children of enemies, even tiny babies, equally as enemies, and kill them (raping the young girls first, of course).

What has happened to the US when murderers and liars run our affairs and neither Congress nor ordinary Americans seem to care? Such Fascists as Elliot Abrams, guilty of lying to Congress and pardoned by Bush I (NYT 12,/07/02), member of the Israel lobby, now in charge of Palestine affairs at National Security; John Negroponte, who as US ambassador to Honduras during the Contra wars, helped Generals Alvarez, chief of Honduras' Armed Forces, and Luis Alonso Discua Elvir, head of Battalion 3-16, create the death squads responsible for the torture and murder or hundreds of men and women, including nuns opposed to the war, now US ambassador to the UN (LATimes 03/25/01; Sister Laetiti Bordes, s.h., 08/24/01); John Poindexter, former vice admiral convicted of five felonies of lying to Congress and obstruction of justice pardoned by Bush I, now in charge of the Pentagon's electronic surveillance system which plans to spy on all Americans' banking, credit card, and travel! transactions without a search warrant (NYT 11/10/02): Otto J. Reich, a Cuba-born anti-Castro fanatic whose office engaged in prohibited acts of propaganda (New Yorker, Oct. 14 & 21, 2002) and appears to want to execute anyone saying one word in favor of the Cuban revolution, now boss of all Latin American US diplomats; Gerald A Reynolds, a longtime foe of Affirmative Action, in charge of Bush II's Office of Civil Rights (NYT 06/27/01); Harvey L. Pitt, a corporate lawyer who has represented the industries opposed to regulations by the SEC, to head the SEC; and on and on, plus all the disgustingly anti-poor, pro-big business lawyers being nominated by Bush II to judgeships around the country.

But by far the most dangerous fascist in Bush II's government is the man in charge of "justice", Attorney General John Ashcroft. A racist, fanatic fundamentalist, opposed to the civil and bodily (abortion) liberties upheld by the Constitution or the Supreme Court. Ashcroft is in favor of secret arrests, secret detentions, secret trials without appeals, secret verdicts and secret executions, all "odious to a democratic society" as Judge Arthur N. D'Italia of New Jersey's Superior Court said, when he ruled that secret detentions were illegal. Ashcroft not only appealed but ordered state and local governments to stop making public the names of those arrested (NYT 05/05/02).

Like in Nazi Germany of yesterday, an innocent citizen who may or may not have mumbled some criticism of Ashcroft himself will suddenly disappear when out walking his dog, and his family will be allowed to go crazy trying to find out what happened.

Will the innocent citizen then be tortured? Don't laugh: the US already uses torture. Now that the evidence is firm, the debate rages. Should we or should we not? And who decides? But in fact, the CIA has been torturing anti-US suspects for years, in Asia, Africa and especially Latin America. When I accompanied former Attorney General Ramsey Clark to Teheran in l980, I saw a video's of CIA men, or Special Forces soldiers, sometimes in US uniform, showing SAVAK officers how to torture.

I remember very vividly one horrifying case: a naked anti-Shah Iranian hanging six inches off the floor by a chain around his wrists, which were bleeding, in the middle of what appeared to be a cement bunker. Two Iranians in civilian clothes were having difficulty forcing a cattle prod, which was wired to an electric generator, into the man's rectum, because his body kept swinging to and fro. An officer, obviously an American, in uniform but sporting no insignia, pushed the Iranians to the side, grabbed the prod with his right hand, held the prisoner with his left, and rammed the prod as far as he could, turning the Iranian toward the camera, and smiled as if to say "see! it's easy." Then, one of the officers of the SAVAK, which was created, financed and trained for the Shah by the CIA and Israel's secret service, the Mossad, turned on the juice, and while the three men jokingly talked to the cameraman in this silent video, the hapless prisoner kept shaking wildly behind.! When the three turned back to him, he was dead.

Not quite what the Washington Post reported on the front page of its December 26, 2002, issue, but what it did report about systematic torture at CIA and Special Forces centers was bad enough. Since then, the NYTimes has been publishing other torture incidents, including the death of two old farmers tortured for having been forced to fight for Taliban. Enough to make every American democrat ashamed. And agree with the chief of Egypt's Organization for Human Rights who said: "Torture demonstrates that the regime deserves destroying because it does not respect the dignity of the people." (The Nation, 03/31/03). Yes, it is the US which needs a regime change -- before we all become either Gestapo informers or actual goons, or end up rotting in jail.

So who benefits from all this repression at home, torture, destruction and killing of children overseas? Not you or me, not us ordinary Joe and Jane. But the rich, those who profit from controlling world trade, the CEO's of the multi-national corporations, like Goodyear, Texaco, Colgate-Palmolive, WorldCom, which earned more than $12 billion in l996-98 but instead of paying taxes got $535 million in credit and refunds, or General Electric, IBM, Intel, and so many others which paid almost no taxes (NYT 10/20/00), while their CEOs gave themselves such huge bonuses that, combined, they could have built a modest home stocked with a year's worth of healthy food for every poor person in the Third World. In 1997, Occidental Petroleum lost $390 million, but CEO Ray Ironi gave himself a $100 bonus. Sanford Wyle, CEO of Travellers upped him quite a bit, with $230 million. Bill Gates' new mansion cost $53.4 million, more than the budget of 72 countries of the world. In 2000, the rat! io of the average salary of a Japanese CEO to that of a Japanese blue-collar worker was 11 to 1; in the US it was 476 to 1 (Time, 04/24/00). Today the US figures are up another third. Obscene, isn't it? So which country really needs a regime change?

The Gang of Four are dedicated to these greedy bloodsuckers. They will continue to lie, torture and kill for their patrons. As Hitler would have said: Iraq today, the world tomorrow. It is time to stop them. Or to try, anyway. Like the German Catholic underground. They risked their lives, and most did indeed lose them, because they knew in their souls that to conquer the world is more than a sin; it is the establishment of evil on earth.

...

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/167/35342.html

0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 08:18 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Oh horseshit, Brandon. Ten years later, and you're still trying to peddle the same BS. Inspectors were on the ground in Iraq, and they reported no womds and no womd programs. We invaded because that was the goal of the neo-cons, which the Project for a New American Century clearly stated as early as 1997, when they asked Clinton to invade Iraq. They needed a casus belli, so they made up the yellow cake story, and they made up BS such as Cheney saying we knew which palm trees the weapons were parked under, and they stampeded the Congress, who, as always, feared for their electoral prospects.

Don't make **** up.

Not too interested in your effort to read peoples' minds. Iraq signed a treaty promising to allow inspectors free access. For 12 years, they obstructed inspectors to the point that the UN found them in material violation and repeatedly warned them. President Bush repeatedly warned them. Many people around the world believed that Iraq had taken its WMD programs underground rather than dismantled them. Had Iraq possessed nuclear or biological weapons, they could have killed millions. One single use of one nuclear weapon of the kind that a third world country might have produced could have killed hundreds of thousands. It's not just that he could have killed millions in his own playground. He might have smuggled the pieces WMDs into America and taken out major cities. After diplomatic efforts to persuade them to obey the treaty and allow free inspections failed for more than a decade, we had no choice but to invade. I would have given that order in president Bush's place. A brutal, evil, sociopathic dictator like Saddam Hussein can never be allowed to possess WMD if we can help it.
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 08:25 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
eurocelticyankee wrote:

See, I don't believe for a second Bush & co cared one way or the other whether wmd existed. Smoke & Mirrors, that war was going to happen no matter what, wmd was just a lie, simple as that. Fabricated intelligence, not bad intel but hyped up bullshit. Cheney & co wanted that war and they lied, bullied & coerced their way into it. Ably abetted by Blair I might add. The funny thing is; Cheney & co knew this war was always going to happen, long in advance, regardless of any weapons inspectors reports, none of that mattered, this war was going to happen and yet, and yet they still managed to make a complete and utter horlocks of it.
Correct me if i'm wrong Brandon, one of the basic rules of war regarding an occupying force is, excuse me for pasting, but I'm lazy.
Art. 43.
The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Anyway, so I think you should stop trying to absolve the US of any responsibility for what happened after you invaded, ridiculous, hundreds of thousands dead and you're doing a Pontius Pilate. They knew they were going to war, any forward planning, any planning for the peace, nothing, like a bunch of ******* cowboys they rolled into that country, no thought to the consequences or more than likely they just didn't care and still don't. That stupidity in itself was a war crime.

We tried for years to get Iraq, per treaty, to allow inspectors free access to verify that they had dismantled WMD programs and they refused to comply. Someone like Saddam Hussein could never be allowed to own weapons with that kind of power. Had he obtained them, the world would have paid a heavy price. He simply refused to allow the UN to verify that he had dismantled the programs per treaty, so after years of warnings, we had to invade. Even if the white house invaded for the base motives you suggest, which I don't believe for a minute, it only means that they did the right thing for the wrong reason. As for casualty figures, I'll thank you to quote only the number killed by American forces. As for restoring order, you should probably add, "where possible."
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  4  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 08:37 pm
I was born and raised in Orange County California, they called it behind the Orange Curtain, upper class people and the majority were Republicans. The republicans were different there, they were educated. My father use to tell me people are the same where ever you go but I’ve learned that’s not the case. The Republicans in the south are a lot less educated then your average Republican., it’s like night and day.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 08:55 pm
@Brandon9000,
There was no evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Hans Blix said that their inspections had found no evidence of weapons of mass destruction nor of programs to produce weapons of mass destruction. That you would have invaded Iraq does not surprise me, nor does it dismay me. I've already long ago realized that you are motivated by emotive propaganda, and not facts.

From the Wikipedia article on Hans Blox:
Quote:
Blix's statements about the Iraq WMD program came to contradict the claims of the George W. Bush administration, and attracted a great deal of criticism from supporters of the invasion of Iraq. In an interview on BBC 1 on 8 February 2004, Dr. Blix accused the US and British governments of dramatising the threat of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, in order to strengthen the case for the 2003 war against the regime of Saddam Hussein. Ultimately, no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction were ever found.

In an interview with London's The Guardian newspaper, Hans Blix said, "I have my detractors in Washington. There are bastards who spread things around, of course, who planted nasty things in the media".
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 09:34 pm
@izzythepush,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
but the UN cannot have any authority to determine
whether it is "legal" for one of its members (like us) to do so.
That wud be infringing upon the sovereignty of America.

izzythepush wrote:
David, the UN was the brainchild of Roosevelt. It was an American idea.
He had no authority to compromise American Sovereignty
(not even if he had 1OO% consent of both houses of Congress).
He 'd have needed an AMENDMENT of the Supreme Law of the Land.
He did not have one.
His "idea" was null, void and without legal effect,
insofar as his ability to compromise American Sovereignty.
He might as well have tried to make gold out of wood.



izzythepush wrote:
It's main objective was to stop another Nazi Germany infringing on the sovereignty of others.
Its objectives did not, cannot and do not create valid law.
(That's like saying: "well, I NEEDED to rob that bank,
so it was OK because I had good intentions.")





izzythepush wrote:
You signed up to this from the beginning,
you can't cry foul because it's a two edged sword.
I never supported Roosevelt.




izzythepush wrote:
Accepting International law necessitates some loss of sovereignty.
"International law" is an international myth.
There is no international government.

I do not accept any "International law"; its a farce, void, a joke.
We have the US Army, Air Force and our full nuclear arsenal
to defend American sovereignty from any "International law."
We can also raise the rent on them in NY if thay get us mad enuf.




izzythepush wrote:
I didn't hear you complaining about the Alabama arbitration.
(Probably because neither of us were born at the time, but you get the idea.)
There have probably been many arbitrations there.
Which one did u have in mind ?





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 09:48 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

There was no evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Hans Blix said that their inspections had found no evidence of weapons of mass destruction nor of programs to produce weapons of mass destruction. That you would have invaded Iraq does not surprise me, nor does it dismay me. I've already long ago realized that you are motivated by emotive propaganda, and not facts.

From the Wikipedia article on Hans Blox:
Quote:
Blix's statements about the Iraq WMD program came to contradict the claims of the George W. Bush administration, and attracted a great deal of criticism from supporters of the invasion of Iraq. In an interview on BBC 1 on 8 February 2004, Dr. Blix accused the US and British governments of dramatising the threat of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, in order to strengthen the case for the 2003 war against the regime of Saddam Hussein. Ultimately, no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction were ever found.

In an interview with London's The Guardian newspaper, Hans Blix said, "I have my detractors in Washington. There are bastards who spread things around, of course, who planted nasty things in the media".

U deny that Saddam had military gas ?
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2013 10:13 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Why not. We'll just copy your attitude toward facts. If we cant disprove them we'll just deny them like you do. Saddam dident have gas.
 

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