5
   

the so-called Whitehall

 
 
WBYeats
 
Reply Tue 16 Jul, 2013 10:12 pm
WHITEHALL is not used with THE, but if we don't like this name and show it by using SO-CALLED, is it a must to use THE?

-(THE) so-called Whitehall are refusing to comment.
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 02:44 am
@WBYeats,
This is a unique circumstance. Whitehall Palace was originally a complex of buildings--more like a small town--then on the outskirts of London (and it was originally called White Hall Palace). You would no more use a definite article with that than you would with London, or Lambeth or Hampstead. The road which lead from the environs of the palace to the City of London (what is now the financial district of London, and a separate borough) came to be called Whitehall Road, or just Whitehall.

However, although much of the palace was burned down, the city was growing outward and soon swallowed up that district, while government offices were set up in the new Queen Anne style (English Baroque), and then the several architectural styles which were popular in the Georgian era (roughly, 1715 to 1830) most notably English Rococo and Neo-classical. When it comes to things like that, the English never throw anything away. Government offices have continued to be housed in those buildings, despite the maintenance costs, to such an extent that Whitehall has become synonymous with government bureaucracy in England.

I cannot imagine why anyone would write "so-called" Whitehall--it's a very real noun to mean government in London. However, note the use of the plural form of "to be." This is in line with British usage, such as saying "the staff are" rather than "the staff is" as an American would probably say it. Although the definite article is not required here, i suspect it was used just as one might say "The government are . . . " or "The bureaucracies are . . . "
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 02:45 am
To make that clear, no, you don't need to use a definite article with "so-called." "So-called experts have made a mess of the entire project."
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 05:08 am
Thank you, Set~
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 09:24 am
@WBYeats,
This is seen elsewhere- for example, the monarch's staff are frequently collectively referred to as "Buckingham Palace"; and "No. 10" refers to the U.K. government.

e.g. "There is no confirmation yet from Buckingham Palace"
"No-one was available from No. 10 to comment."

(That doesn't work with The White House or The Pentagon, obvs.)
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 10:49 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Whitehall has become synonymous with government bureaucracy in England.


I am disappointed you don't know better than to perpetuate the American blindness about Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 10:59 am
@contrex,
I am gratified to see how easy it is to jerk your chain.
contrex
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 11:00 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I cannot imagine why anyone would write "so-called" Whitehall--it's a very real noun to mean government in London.


I wonder if they intended "thus-called"? "So-called" implies scepticism about the legitimacy of the following name or title.
contrex
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 11:01 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I am gratified to see how easy it is to jerk your chain.


It is shamefully easy...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 11:09 am
@contrex,
Exactly what i had thought.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 11:58 am
I don't believe your error was intentional; I think, like many Americans you think the nation whose capital is London is called "England". I think that when you said you were yanking my chain, you were in fact yanking my chain.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 12:46 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
To make that clear, no, you don't need to use a definite article with "so-called." "So-called experts have made a mess of the entire project."


To make it even clearer, 'so-called' has nothing to do with whether we use 'the' or not. It is used when a speaker/writer uses language that makes the group specific.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 01:07 pm
@contrex,
Actually, you made it clear yeas go, as have so many of your fellow citizens, that it irritates you to have the United Kingdom, the so-called Britain,referred to simply as England. I therefore make an effort to avoid using the term Britain, and to simply say England whenever possible.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 01:53 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Actually, you made it clear yeas go, as have so many of your fellow citizens, that it irritates you to have the United Kingdom, the so-called Britain,referred to simply as England. I therefore make an effort to avoid using the term Britain, and to simply say England whenever possible.


It's funny that you say that, because many Americans have made it clear that certain ways of referring to them are irritating, so for a very similar reason I make an effort to avoid using the term "American" and simply say "fat stupid loudmouthed prating wanker" wherever possible.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 02:08 pm
@contrex,
How's that workin' out for ya, Bubba?
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 02:11 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

How's that workin' out for ya, Bubba?


Well, I needed some orthodontic work after a visit to Atlantic City last year.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2013 05:50 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
so for a very similar reason I make an effort to avoid using the term "American" and simply say "fat stupid loudmouthed prating wanker" wherever possible.


Quote:
How's that workin' out for ya, Bubba?


It seems to have gotten your attention, Set.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 12:12 am
@contrex,

We call all Americans "yanks", which probably doesn't play too well in Tallahassee either.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 03:31 am
@McTag,
I'd say it doesn't play too well anywhere.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 10:50 am
@Setanta,
I'd say that it would play pretty fair in a lot of countries around the world, Set.
0 Replies
 
 

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