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AMERICANS JOLTED BY IRAQ ATROCITIES

 
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:57 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
... do you guys think we should just roll over and not retaliate


There certainly should be a response. But our response should be measured and thought out. How we react to this will determine the success or failure of the Iraq occupation.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:59 pm
Quote:
The victims of the incident were basically mercenaries. Guards hired to protect convoys of food to Fallujah.

Which puts things in a slightly different light, now, doesn't it.

Foxy, I know people who were recently deployed, are deployed, and will be deployed. I also have a friend who recently returned to Iraq after an 11 year absence. I am at least as well informed as the next guy.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:09 pm
Willow was wrong for her comment, but yours is just as stupid.
Now, back to the discussion. If the victims were indeed armed mercenaries, were they not, then, legitimate targets?
Had these been schoolmarms, or engineers, or any of a dozen other types of "civillian contractors," I would be a bit more outraged.
Consider that for many Iraqis, the combination of 30 years of Ba'athist propoganda, and the focus of world opinion wmight make one suispect these were members of a sort of "private hit squad."
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:13 pm
I think that Person B should get off his dead ass and get a job.

Oops, wrong thread...

Quote:
US Promises Overwhelming Response to Iraq Killings

By Luke Baker and Khaled Yacoub Oweis

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. troops on Thursday promised an "overwhelming" response to brutal killings in the Iraqi town of Falluja and vowed to hunt down those who shot, burned and mutilated four American contractors.

Marines took positions on the outskirts of the restive town west of Baghdad where insurgents ambushed the contractors on Wednesday.

"Coalition forces will respond," the U.S. army's deputy director of operations Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt told a news conference. "They are coming back and they are going to hunt down the people responsible for this bestial act.

"It will be at a time and a place of our choosing. It will be methodical, it will be precise and it will be overwhelming."

Television footage of jubilant Iraqis mutilating the bodies recalled events in Mogadishu in 1993, when a crowd dragged the bodies of American soldiers through the streets, hastening the departure of U.S. forces from Somalia.

A leaflet distributed in Falluja on Thursday claimed that the previously unknown "group of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin" had killed the Americans in response to the Israeli assassination of Hamas spiritual leader Yassin last month. It was not immediately possible to verify the claim.

Falluja was relatively quiet on Thursday, but residents said more bloody killings should be expected.

"The Americans may think it is unusual but this is what they should expect. They show up in places and shoot civilians so why can't they be killed?" Falluja shop worker Amir said.

U.S. troops fired on demonstrators in Falluja last April, killing at least 15 people. Others in the town have been killed since then, often blaming U.S. troops for firing randomly and excessive violence during raids. Residents always vow revenge.

An Iraqi Governing Council member stressed that those responsible represented just a small minority of Iraqis but also encouraged U.S. troops to think carefully about how to respond.

"In 1958, July 14th, some members of the royal family were killed and mutilated. Iraqis were ashamed for decades at this barbaric event," Samir Sumaidi said. "Now after this I feel that again Iraqis will hang their heads in shame."

TRADE FAIR CANCELED

Guerrillas near Falluja detonated a roadside bomb as a U.S. convoy passed by on Thursday, wounding three soldiers. One Humvee left behind by American soldiers near the site of the attack was later set ablaze and looted by a crowd of Iraqis.

A roadside bomb killed five U.S. soldiers on Wednesday in the same area, a hotspot for resistance to the occupation.

The U.S governor of Iraq Paul Bremer vowed to hunt down those responsible for ambushing the contractors, and those who then torched the corpses and dragged them through the streets before hanging them from a bridge.

"The acts we have seen were despicable and inexcusable," he said. "They violate the tenets of all religions, Islam included, as well as the foundations of civilized society. Their deaths will not go unpunished."

As the violence sparked renewed concern among foreign organizations working in Iraq, a high-profile U.S.-sponsored trade fair for companies rebuilding Iraq was postponed.

Organizers of the Baghdad Expo, a major trade fair that had been due to start on Monday, said it was postponed -- a blow to U.S. efforts to draw investment to Iraq and project an image of a stable country conducive to doing business.

No new date was set for the event.

Washington hopes economic growth in Iraq will help undermine the guerrilla insurgency, but so far, the lack of stability and security in some parts of Iraq has hampered reconstruction.

On Wednesday, a car bomb attack in the town of Ramadi, near Falluja, killed six Iraqis and wounded five, the U.S. army said. It gave no further details.

In Basra, a mainly Shi'ite city 550 km (340 miles) south of Baghdad, at least one Iraqi was killed in clashes between Iraqi police and around 100 protesters demanding salaries on Thursday. The protesters threw stones and set tyres on fire.

The U.S. military death toll last month was the second highest of any month since President Bush declared major combat over on May 1 last year.

At least 50 American troops died in Iraq in March, according to Pentagon figures. The deadliest month for U.S. forces was November, when 82 U.S. troops died.

At least 407 American troops have been killed in action in Iraq since U.S.-led forces invaded on March 20 last year to topple Saddam Hussein.

Guerrilla attacks in March also killed at least 16 foreign civilians, including the four who died in Falluja on Wednesday. (Additional reporting by Michael Georgy, Atef Hassan, Fiona O'Brien)


Reuters/Yahoo

By the way, the victims were not mercenaries. Mercenaries are civilian soldiers. These were basically civilian armed guards.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:15 pm
Quote:
By the way, the victims were not mercenaries. Mercenaries are civilian soldiers. These were basically civilian armed guards.

I don't see any difference here.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:18 pm
Agreeing to disagree amicably with Hobitbob Smile

As for Mg's question, I see a huge difference in taking issue with a comment and rebutting it and in personally directly insults. I understand both--I've had to bite my tongue hard on more than one occasion--but I do wish the personal insults could be kept to a minimum in this forum.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:24 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
By the way, the victims were not mercenaries. Mercenaries are civilian soldiers. These were basically civilian armed guards.

I don't see any difference here.

Guard - One who protects, keeps watch, or acts as a sentinel.
Soldier - One who is engaged in military service as an officer or a private; one who serves in an army; one of an organized body of combatants.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:25 pm
The Marines are surrounding Falluja, preparing a counterstrike, as US and Iraqi civil forces have completely lost control of the town.

The US is promising an "overwhelming response", but we know what has happened every time the armed forces tried to "shock and awe" the Iraqis into submission.

It ends up killing a bunch of civilians in "collateral damage" and pouring gas on the quagmire fire.

The Marines will surely retake the city, whatever that means in a guerrilla war. The question is not whether the Marines can "take territory", it's whether they can hold it. And in a city like Falluja, they can only hold it if they're willing to take heavy casualties. Sitting ducks, so to speak.

Not that they aren't already sitting ducks. Last month, 51 US soldiers died, the second-highest tally since Bush declared "mission accomplished".

Nope, we can't cut and run now. George Bush has to be a Wartime President at least until the election.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:27 pm
I was thinking more of a different definition. More of the "Let's hire someone with experience to guard a convoy. Maybe an ex-soldier or something"

according to M-W
Quote:
one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service


But that also refers to military service.

I can see the difference between a soldier and a guard.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:35 pm
I just read an account of a reporter that accompanied some of these guards into one of the cities, stayed there for a while, and then left. It was frightening. The soldiers wouldn't escort them into the city so they had to make it there on their own. To start with, they bought guns from an Iraqi out of the trunk of his car because they couldn't use military guns and they couldn't bring their own. They had a big SUV, like the one that was burning in the pictures. They had to drive over 100 mph because they knew people were gunning for them. They were all former military and knew how to handle themselves. When they got to the city, they set up security around a hotel where some diplomats were staying. They had some Iraqi Kurds working for them as translators and security guards. The lure of the job is apparently the huge salaries they are paid, but the liability is the bullets whizzing around everywhere.
0 Replies
 
Titus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 03:49 pm
"Those weren't terrorists, for gods sake, fox. " blatham

Indeed.

But blatham, the sort of mindset exhibited by this poster is characteristic of the Bush loyalists: anyone who dares to display any behavior that could even remotely be construed as "anti-Bush" is immediately branded a "terrorist."

I detest Bush: therefore, I'm a terrorist.

You detest Bush: therefore, you're a terrorist.

This sort of black and white organization of reality is commonly seen amongst conservatives, but the Bush loyalists have taken it to a whole new level.
[/color]
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 04:10 pm
Quote:
I detest Bush: therefore, I'm a terrorist.

You detest Bush: therefore, you're a terrorist.

Personally, I prefer to think of myself by the WWII French term: partisan.


Meanwhile, on NPR the use of these "private security" personnell is being discussed.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 04:12 pm
No Titus, most of us actually do debate with thoughtful and reasoned opinions however much others may disagree with them. And some seem to be unable to disagree any other way than with direct or implied insults. Want to guess to whom I give the most credibility on either side?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 05:18 pm
willow_tl wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
willow_tl wrote:
you hide behind meanlingless words Mg..you were calling us ignorant..so if you want to get into a name calling match i'm right here buddy...i grew up in the streets..you don't stand a chance...


You're probably right. I grew up in a nice home with a family that loved me.

then they must be very ashamed... Rolling Eyes


Ashamed? That I chat on the Internet? That's quite a stretch, but as you can't seem to help yourself, I will concede. You win. I apologize for calling you ignorant.

Now, is it possible for you to get back on the subject?
0 Replies
 
Titus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 05:38 pm
"Want to guess to whom I give the most credibility on either side?" foxfyre

To quote George W. Bush, "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....."

Hmmmm? The Bush side? Ding, ding, ding! I'm the winner! LOL!!!
[/color]
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 05:38 pm
Apology accepted Mg...and mine is offered as well..
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 05:44 pm
Interesting article from last year.Privatising war.
0 Replies
 
doglover
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 05:46 pm
PDiddie wrote:
The Marines are surrounding Falluja, preparing a counterstrike, as US and Iraqi civil forces have completely lost control of the town.

The US is promising an "overwhelming response", but we know what has happened every time the armed forces tried to "shock and awe" the Iraqis into submission.

It ends up killing a bunch of civilians in "collateral damage" and pouring gas on the quagmire fire.

The Marines will surely retake the city, whatever that means in a guerrilla war. The question is not whether the Marines can "take territory", it's whether they can hold it. And in a city like Falluja, they can only hold it if they're willing to take heavy casualties. Sitting ducks, so to speak.

Not that they aren't already sitting ducks. Last month, 51 US soldiers died, the second-highest tally since Bush declared "mission accomplished".


The Iraqis, though out-matched, have shown that they are obviously not scared to keep fighting. Leveling an entire city/town would only further rally them to their cause. I'm sure the few Iraqis who do support the propped up government will even be against such action.

The is almost a no-win situation. As far as leveling Fallujah...we are damned if we do (counter productive to our Mission), and damned if we don't (the attack goes un-punished).
0 Replies
 
Titus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 05:52 pm
doglover:

The Iraqis know war. You don't suffer through a 10 year long war with your neighbor and not polish your fighting skills.

The Afghanis brought the once powerful USSR to its feet as well.

Determined people are capable of extraordinary feats.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:51 pm
An example of the type of thing that drives people to such hatred, or at least excacerbates it, from May, 2003:



Quote:
[size=25]TWO KILLED IN NEW IRAQ DEMO SHOOTING[/size]

May 1 2003

It started when a young boy hurled a sandal at a US jeep - it ended
with two Iraqis dead and 16 seriously injured.

I watched in horror as American troops opened fire on a crowd of 1,000
unarmed people here yesterday.

Many, including children, were cut down by a 20-second burst of
automatic gunfire during a demonstration against the killing of 13
protesters at the Al-Kaahd school on Monday.

They had been whipped into a frenzy by religious leaders. The crowd
were facing down a military compound of tanks and machine-gun posts.

The youngster had apparently lobbed his shoe at the jeep - with a M2
heavy machine gun post on the back - as it drove past in a convoy of
other vehicles.

A soldier operating the weapon suddenly ducked, raised it on its pivot
then pressed his thumb on the trigger.

Mirror photographer Julian Andrews and I were standing about six feet
from the vehicle when the first shots rang out, without warning.

We dived for cover under the compound wall as troops within the crowd
opened fire. The convoy accelerated away from the scene.

Iraqis in the line of fire dived for cover, hugging the dust to escape
being hit.

We could hear the bullets screaming over our heads. Explosions of sand
erupted from the ground - if the rounds failed to hit a demonstrator
first. Seconds later the shooting stopped and the screaming and
wailing began.

One of the dead, a young man, lay face up, half his head missing,
first black blood, then red spilling into the dirt.
His friends screamed at us in anger, then looked at the grim sight in
disbelief.

A boy of 11 lay shouting in agony before being carted off in a car to
a hospital already jam-packed with Iraqis hurt in Monday's incident.

Cars pulled up like taxis to take the dead and injured to hospital, as
if they had been waiting for this to happen.

A man dressed like a sheik took off his headcloth to wave and direct
traffic around the injured. The sickening scenes of death and pain
were the culmination of a day of tension in Al-Fallujah sparked by
Monday's killings.

The baying crowd had marched 500 yards from the school to a local
Ba'ath party HQ. We joined them, asking questions and taking pictures,
as Apache helicopters circled above.

The crowd waved their fists at the gunships angrily and shouted: "Go
home America, go home America."

We rounded a corner and saw edgy-looking soldiers lined up along the
street in between a dozen armoured vehicles. All of them had automatic
weapons pointing in the firing position.

As the crowd - 10 deep and about 100 yards long - marched towards the
US positions, chanting "Allah is great, go home Americans", the troops
reversed into the compound.

On the roof of the two-storey fortress, ringed by a seven-foot high
brick wall, razor wire and with several tanks inside, around 20
soldiers ran to the edge and took up positions.
A machine gun post at one of the corners swivelled round, taking aim
at the crowd which pulled to a halt.

We heard no warning to disperse and saw no guns or knives among the
Iraqis whose religious and tribal leaders kept shouting through loud
hailers to remain peaceful. In the baking heat and with the deafening
noise of helicopters the tension reached breaking point.

Julian and I ran towards the compound to get away from the crowd as
dozens of troops started taking aim at them, others peering at them
through binoculars.

Tribal leaders struggled to contain the mob which was reaching a
frenzy.

A dozen ran through the cordon of elders, several hurling what
appeared to be rocks at troops.

Some of the stones just reached the compound walls. Many threw sandals
- a popular Iraqi insult.

A convoy of Bradley military jeeps passed by, the Iraqis hurling
insults at them, slapping the sides of the vehicles with their
sandals, tribal leaders begging them to retreat.

The main body of demonstrators jeered the passing US troops pointing
their thumbs down to mock them.

Then came the gunfire - and the death and the agony.

After the shootings the American soldiers looked at the appalling
scene through their binoculars and set up new positions, still
training their guns at us.

An angry mob battered an Arab TV crew van, pulling out recording
equipment and hurling it at the compound. Those left standing - now
apparently insane with anger - ran at the fortress battering its walls
with their fists. Many had tears pouring down their faces.

Still no shots from the Iraqis and still no sign of the man with the
AK47 who the US later claimed had let off a shot at the convoy.

I counted at least four or five soldiers with binoculars staring at
the crowd for weapons but we saw no guns amongst the injured or
dropped on the ground.

A local told us the crowd would turn on foreigners so we left and went
to the hospital.

There, half an hour later, another chanting mob was carrying an open
coffin of one of the dead, chanting "Islam, Islam, Islam, death to the
Americans".

We left when we were spat at by a wailing woman dressed in black
robes.

US troops had been accused of a bloody massacre over the killings of
the 13 Iraqis outside the school on Monday. Three of the dead were
said to be boys under 11.

At least 75 locals were injured in a 30-minute gun battle after
soldiers claimed they were shot at by protesters.

Demonstrators claimed they were trying to reclaim the school from the
Americans who had occupied it as a military HQ.

The crowd had defied a night-time curfew to carry out the protest.


I think it would do us all well to remember that at least 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians have died as a result of this invasion.

This often downplayed fact has to be taken into consideration when Americans wonder how Iraqis could be so ungrateful and enraged.

To put this number in perspective, less than 3,000 American civilians died on September 11th - and look at how that galvinized our nation.
0 Replies
 
 

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