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AMERICANS JOLTED BY IRAQ ATROCITIES

 
 
Titus
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 08:49 am
The grisly television news images of the latest carnage in Iraq reminded some viewers of Mogadishu.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/01/national/01REAX.html

Ryan Butler, a Wichita bartender, wondered whether this was a sign that it was time for the Americans to leave Iraq altogether.

"Let's get out of there already and let them figure out how to get their acts together on their own," Mr. Butler said.

Wisdom from the Heartland.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 10,028 • Replies: 179
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:24 am
Cut and run again leaving the innocent to the mercy and dictates of the terrorists? This is exactly what the terrorists are trying to make happen.

Or maybe, just maybe, we should be so outraged that we will deliver swift justice to the animals who do atrocities like this. If American stands firm and does not cower because things are difficult, the terrorists crawl back into their holes and leave decent people alone.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:43 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Cut and run again leaving the innocent to the mercy and dictates of the terrorists? This is exactly what the terrorists are trying to make happen.

Or maybe, just maybe, we should be so outraged that we will deliver swift justice to the animals who do atrocities like this. If American stands firm and does not cower because things are difficult, the terrorists crawl back into their holes and leave decent people alone.


Those weren't terrorists, for gods sake, fox. This doesn't support Bush's idiotic move, it speaks against it. This is exactly the sort of event predicted by any number of thoughtful people familiar with the mideast before the war began. We have no option now, but to engage this mess. But let's be clear about who put us there, and why.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:36 am
Really? Every credible news source I've been reading yesterday and today refers to the murderers as 'thugs' and 'terrorists'. Your definition must be very different.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 11:48 am
Quote:
The four foreigners were killed in a rebel ambush of their SUVs in Fallujah...Jubilant residents dragged the charred corpses of four foreigners -- one a woman, at least one an American -- through the streets Wednesday and hanged them from the bridge spanning the Euphrates River.
that's from Salon, but it is the description on the wires as well. The residents dismembered, dragged, and hung the bodies.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:38 pm
Perhaps we should leave, rather than become involved in a war that is difficult to win. I do not believe that we should take on an opponent who fights back hard. Although the American Revolution took 8 years and World War II took 4, those were very different times. I would not like to see us get involved in any wars that last more than a few weeks, and certainly not any that are so frightening. Please don't hurt me.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:38 pm
Quote:
NY Post--April 1, 2004 -- A young boy gloats in the charred remains of one of the two SUVs driven by American contractors who were killed after Fallujah terrorists tossed grenades at them.... Bloodthirsty Iraqi thugs ambushed four American workers in Fallujah yesterday, and a frenzied mob dragged their butchered bodies through the streets and hanged two of them from a bridge - while cheering and chanting anti-American slogans

Insurgents attack U.S. convoy in Fallujah
11:35 AM CST on Thursday, April 1, 2004
Associated Press

FALLUJAH, Iraq - A roadside bomb injured three American troops on Thursday near Fallujah, a day after the grisly killing and mutilation of four American contract workers in the city. The top U.S. administrator in Iraq said the deaths would not go unpunished.

Editorial: 4/1/04 Dallas Morning News:
Fallujah Atrocity: U.S. must track down members of mob
12:09 AM CST on Thursday, April 1, 2004
It is hard for those of us who sit in our safe American homes to comprehend the barbarism on display in Fallujah yesterday.

Four American civilian contractors who provided security for food convoys -- food convoys -- were ambushed, burned alive, and playthings made of their charred remains by the fanatical crowd. "Long live Islam!" they chanted, and "God is great!" A young boy planted his foot triumphantly on the black, crusted head of a dead American and said, "Where is Bush? Let him come here and see this."

This is a teachable moment. One way or another, the mobs of Fallujah will see what the American military is made of. Though Fallujah, a snake pit of 230,000 souls, is the most deadly city in Iraq, the lesson will not be lost on other cities in the Sunni triangle, particularly leading up to the planned June handover of the government to Iraqi civilian control. How the U.S. military responds is vitally important.

The mob is hoping that the American public will see the grisly inhumanity of which the Saddam loyalists are capable, and lose its stomach for engagement there. They're counting on a repeat of the retreat from Mogadishu following a similar incident in 1993, memorialized by the book and film Black Hawk Down. That's not going to happen this time.

What must happen, though, is the unflinching determination to subdue that lawless city. Every man and boy present at the murders today must be arrested and punished for their role, even if it was only to laugh at the dead. We must pursue justice -- but not revenge.

This was no ordinary outrage, if only because television cameras broadcast the barbarians' sneering act of defiance around the world. It demands a strong response. For the sake of Iraq's future, no one must be given reason to conclude that the Fallujah mob got away with this atrocity.

LA Times 4/1/04--FALLOUJA, Iraq
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 01:10 pm
What's wrong with this picture:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040401/capt.sge.dpk99.010404160249.photo01.default-384x292.jpg
Quote:
An Iraqi boy holds a leaflet saying 'Fallujah, the cemetery of the Americans,' near a burning car. A previously unknown group claimed the gruesome killing of four US contractors in Fallujah, western Iraq (news - web sites), in revenge for Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.(AFP/File/Karim Sahib)

I'll tell you what's wrong. He's standing in front of the car that's still burning, holding a PRE PRINTED SIGN. These people were ready to kill Americans.

I think a swift and terrible retribution is in order.

Oh, and I'm glad the US doesn't make policy decisions on the word of a bartender from Wichita.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 01:40 pm
Quote:
"Fallujah remains one of those cities in Iraq that just don't get it. It's a former Baathist stronghold.... They have a view that somehow the harder they fight, the better chance they have of achieving some sort of restorationist movement within the country."

Hmmm..sounds like the Nazis describing the reisitance movements in WWII. But that surely can't be the case, since we are the "good guys," right? Rolling Eyes
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 01:42 pm
Quote:
I'll tell you what's wrong. He's standing in front of the car that's still burning, holding a PRE PRINTED SIGN. These people were ready to kill Americans.

After all, its not like its their country we invaded, or anything...

Quote:
I think a swift and terrible retribution is in order.

The Nazis would have agreed with you.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 01:57 pm
Well normally I respect another member's opinions and refuse to join the insult contests. But I have to say that comparison of the U.S. troops and the humanitarian efforts in Fallujah with the Nazis is at the very best reprehensible.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:22 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I'll tell you what's wrong. He's standing in front of the car that's still burning, holding a PRE PRINTED SIGN. These people were ready to kill Americans.

After all, its not like its their country we invaded, or anything...

You are sympathizing with this terrorist?

hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I think a swift and terrible retribution is in order.

The Nazis would have agreed with you.

I hereby invoke the swift and terrible justice of Godwin's Law!
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:24 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well normally I respect another member's opinions and refuse to join the insult contests. But I have to say that comparison of the U.S. troops and the humanitarian efforts in Fallujah with the Nazis is at the very best reprehensible.

Try re-reading the series of posts. I was not comparing US troops to the Nazis. I was comparing the suggestions of some posters, and the commments of the US occupation commander with the comments of Nazi occupation commanders. We are not "better" than the Nazi regime by virtue of not being Germans in the 1940s. We are "better" if we refuse to emulate their actions.
As a corrolary, we are not the "good guys" just because we are "Americans." We have just as much potential to take the sinister path as the Germans did in the 1930s-1940s. The incidents in Fallujah could potentially tip us in that direction, and I hope that our leaders are strong enough not to make that choice.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:25 pm
Double, stupid computer!
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:28 pm
Tarantulas wrote:

You are sympathizing with this terrorist?

Ne, I am displaying empathy for someone whose nation has been invaded by a hostile foreign power.

Regarding Godwin's law, I don't think it applies here, since I am referring to historical precedent. An equally valid comparison would be the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel in the period since 1967.
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willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:31 pm
Can't you all see the madness...and then we continue here to attack each other..to see who has the better put down...God people....when is enough enough?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:33 pm
willow_tl wrote:
Can't you all see the madness...and then we continue here to attack each other..to see who has the better put down...God people....when is enough enough?

When all are dead but I.
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ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:34 pm
Quote:
and then we continue here to attack each other..to see who has the better put down...God people....when is enough enough?


Excellent question.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:48 pm
Apologies to Hobitbob if I mischaracterized his comment. The people of Fallujah are not raging against us because we invaded Iraq. They are raging against us because a new constitution, however temporary, and a new democratic regime is about to be installed in Iraq at the will of the majority and it won't be controlled by the Sunni extremists who are being stirred up by terrorists and thugs.

You have to talk to people who have actually been there to understand how bad it was before our invasion and how much better it is for the vast majority now.

Also, many Fallujah citizens who are not Sunni extremists deplore what happened as it goes against everything their religion teaches and some actually do appreciate our presence there.

It is natural that Iraqis hope we're soon out of there and let them run their own show. Come June or at least early fall, we'll be gone if current time tables hold up.

Until then do you guys think we should just roll over and not retaliate when terrorists do their worst and pretend it's okay that they will then celebrate when their violent measures are deemed victory? I can assure you that most of the Iraqi people shudder to think that the Saddam-supporting Sunni extremists might prevail here.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:54 pm
I am not sure I would call what happened in Fallujah an act of terrorism. More an act of war and war is hell. The problem with the "rebellion" is they don't know what they are rebelling against. The victims of the incident were basically mercenaries. Guards hired to protect convoys of food to Fallujah. So, are the "rebels" fighting against food shipments? Against freedom? This is the problem with ignorance, the ignorant can be easily led. For example, look how many people in the US actually believe Kerry has a chance at being president...
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