42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
JPB
 
  4  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 10:55 am
[Retired] Rep Dennis Kucinich in response to a question about what it would take for James Clapper to be held responsible for lying to Congress.

Quote:
Well, you know it's illegal to lie to Congress, but everyone lies to Congress. As soon as they raise their right hand, watch out! Clapper should be held responsible, but he won't be, because that's the condition we're in right now. In a just world, Snowden, we'd be having ticker tape parades for him. But that's not what's going to happen.

[....] We have the CIA, the FBI, a dozen other intelligence infrastructures. Frankly -- and I'm saying this with a lifetime's experience in government here -- it's time to punch the NSA's ticket here. They've ruined the brand. They've destroyed the idea of privacy. We need some kind of symbolic and profound approach here, that says, 'look, you've violated something that's very dear to the American people -- you don't get to do that.' We talk about the death penalty for individuals, which I oppose, but I think there needs to be for government agencies that so broadly betray the public interest, there needs to be a measure of responsibility. And if they go beyond the pale, which the NSA has, they just ought to be abolished. We don't need the spying.




I noticed an earlier post from Rev that was then deleted. I certainly hope she didn't feel the need to withdraw that post because of the fear that someone within her own government would read it.
JPB
 
  4  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 10:59 am
@JPB,
I don't agree with the ticker-tape response, nor do I see Snowden as a hero or a traitor. I see him as a whistleblower and ideologue who felt the need to expose what he saw as a serious miscarriage of our democracy. We need to be having this discussion. As a free society we need to be aware of what we're doing in the world, both at home and abroad.
JPB
 
  1  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:09 am
And, so, now we devolve into a giant game of "chicken"

Quote:
LONDON - Glenn Greenwald, the journalist who first published the contents of classified documents provided by ex-NSA contractor Edward Snowden, said Monday that Britain will "regret” detaining and questioning his partner.

"I will be more aggressive in my reporting from now,” he told reporters in Portuguese at Rio de Janeiro’s airport where he met his boyfriend David Miranda who had flown from London to Brazil.
"I have many more documents to report on, including ones about the UK, where I'll now focus more," he said. "It'll backfire. I think they'll come to regret it."
Source

<sigh>
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:10 am
Just wondering, if White House deputy press secretary Josh Earnest really will be questioned as to whether the US had any involvement or knowledge of David Miranda being detained ...

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps47745d17.jpg
http://www.whitehouse.gov/live
Thomas
 
  5  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:13 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
As a free society we need to be aware of what we're doing in the world, both at home and abroad.

I agree. To me, the whole discussion if the Snowdens and the Assanges of the world are heros or traitors is a diversion from the discussion we should be having. Let's talk about lawless and underground government, about spying on citizens, about American war crimes in Iraq and Afghanisan, about killing American citizens without due process, and all that. And anyway, who said that "hero" and "traitor" are mutually exclusive? Wasn't General George Washington both a hero and a traitor to the English crown, to which he had bound himself by oath?
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:14 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I see him as a whistleblower and ideologue who felt the need to expose what he saw as a serious miscarriage of our democracy.

Ideologue: An adherent of an ideology, esp. one who is uncompromising and dogmatic.

That term has very negative connotations and I don't think it applies. I'm good with whistleblower, but I don't know any other whistleblower who knew going in they would have to make the sacrifices Snowden knew he would have to make. That he knew the costs and chose to make them anyway is what tips him to hero in my opinion.
JPB
 
  2  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:22 am
@engineer,
Interesting -- I don't see it as a negative, possibly because I see myself somewhat as a ideologue within my own definition of the word as someone who is highly principled with a strong sense of right and wrong.

I take your point, however.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  5  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:22 am
@JPB,
I am a moody person, I decided to delete my posts until more facts came out. However, from what I can tell right now, there really isn't a justifiable reason for the British police to use the terrorism excuse since it seems they didn't ask any questions related to terrorism. I guess they wanted whatever they could get and got it. Whether they get away with it, I don't know. As it is right now, not sure how it relates to the US other than Miranda was working on a story concerning the NSA leaks.

I am not sure NSA needs to be abolished but I think it definitely needs to be changed with people in oversight positions with some teeth to it who are not part of the three branches of government.

On Snowden, in my opinion, he broke the law, he needs to answer for it, he might of revealed too much and put people in danger. But he did do a service in revealing how deep the spying is and got people talking and digging into it all.
Thomas
 
  3  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:25 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
On Snowden, in my opinion, he broke the law, he needs to answer for it,

On what compulsion need he?
revelette
 
  1  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:31 am
@Thomas,
On any compulsion with anyone breaking a law.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:32 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Okay. So the US-government has nothing to do with it ...
Thomas
 
  3  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:36 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
On any compulsion with anyone breaking a law.

That's not what I meant. You said "he needs" to answer for his lawbreaking. So I'm asking you: what would be his problem if he didn't answer for it?

PS: You are talking about "the" law as if there was only one. But there isn't. America does not have jurisdiction over the rest of the world, and it's a good thing, too. Snowden hasn't broken the laws of Russia, where he currently resides, and hasn't broken the law of any of the countries that he seeks to immigrate to. Even if Snowden is a traitor, these countries have no obligation to cooperate in his arrest, just as the United States of America had no obligation to extradite George Washington to England, upon which he had committed treason.
revelette
 
  1  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:37 am
@Thomas,
Probably no problem.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Earnest is asked again about Miranda's detention. He repeats his earlier assertion that it was a decision taken by the British government, "without involvement, and not at the request, of the United States government".

"In terms of the kind of classified confidential conversations that are ongoing between the US and our allies in Britain, I'm not able to characterise those for you."

Earnest's responses are prompting some scepticism online.
revelette
 
  2  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:40 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Earnest's responses are prompting some scepticism online.


Well, color me surprised.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:40 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
Probably no problem.

Ah, so what you really meant was "America needs Snowden to answer for breaking the law", not "Snowden needs to answer for breaking the law." These are very different needs, you know.

(PS: Sorry for editing my post on you while you responded to it.)
JPB
 
  3  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So.... someone within the British government sees a name on a passenger list, traces it to a reference list of all possible Snowden connections, decides to invoke an anti-terrorism law in order to accomplish ???? something - send a message, find something that will allow charges to be brought, CALM DOWN THE MASSES WHO ARE CLAMORING ABOUT GOV'T OVERREACH, perhaps?

Whoever made this bonehead decision had about as much sense as the bonehead who called for the President of Bolivia to be grounded in Austria.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:45 am
@Thomas,
I think perhaps you are messing with me. As usual a little slow, that side of me gets exposed the longer I am on in the internet.
JPB
 
  1  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:49 am
@revelette,
rev, I really appreciate your participation in these discussions. You don't appear to be naturally skeptical like some of us <raises hand> or presenting an unbendable position of either side of the debate.
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:52 am
@revelette,
Messing with you is part of it, but it's not personal. I often use humor to get my points across; the points themselves are genuine.

Also, I second what JPB just said.
0 Replies
 
 

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