42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
revelette
 
  1  
Fri 16 Aug, 2013 07:56 am
Also perhaps they need a more efficient FISA court, it seems that most of these programs are so complex and vast, FISA has limited ability to oversee it.

Court: Ability to police U.S. spying program limited
Also on the second page of that article, it seems that most of the problems stem from methods of the tools used causing unintended collection of targets. (if I word it right)

Quote:
The public summaries of the violations do not say how long the problem went undetected and unreported to the court, or what information was improperly gathered by the agency’s automated collection systems.

“The problems generally involved the implementation of highly sophisticated technology in a complex and ever-changing communications environment which, in some instances, results in the automated tools operating in a manner that was not completely consistent with the specific terms of the Court’s orders,” according to unredacted portions of a December 2009 memo provided to the Senate and House intelligence committees.

Two people familiar with the 2009 flaw said that the agency was collecting more “fields” of information from the customer records of telephone companies than the court had approved. The NSA declined to answer questions about the event.

One senior intelligence official, who was authorized by the White House to speak on the condition of anonymity, described the 2009 incident as a “major event” that prompted the agency to dramatically increase its compliance staff.

“We uncovered some disconnects between us and our overseers, disconnects between what we had put in documentation, the way we had described things in documentation,” the official said.

Although the violation was unintentional, the official said, “it wasn’t always the easiest of discussions” with the court.

The agency paused, “got ourselves with our overseers back into fair territory,” and has since made “substantial improvement” in compliance, the official said.
JPB
 
  3  
Fri 16 Aug, 2013 08:54 am
I feel like we're living in a combination of '1984' and 'Dr Strangelove'.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 16 Aug, 2013 09:45 am
@JPB,
Don't forget Brazil.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2x3QlYYfw-E/Th2_L2XgT4I/AAAAAAAAAWc/0CCAwVYXKaM/s320/Brazil+Bluray+June+12+2011.jpg
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Fri 16 Aug, 2013 10:08 am
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”


― Benjamin Franklin
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Fri 16 Aug, 2013 10:20 am
@revelette,
Whenever the US government wants to create a boogeyman, the sheeple just baaa and follow right along. It has happened time and again. It illustrates just what nonsense "government of the people by the people for the people" is.

It's really, has always been really, "government of the companies, by the companies, for the companies".

The sheeple in this "grand experiment in democracy" are there just for fleecing.
JPB
 
  3  
Fri 16 Aug, 2013 10:33 am
I'm not a fan of either Chris Christie or Rand Paul, and probably wouldn't vote for either of them in 2016, but the "esoteric" labeling of privacy concerns by Christie is insulting.

Quote:
As The Switch notes, Gellman’s reporting pretty directly contradicts what Obama said just one week ago. Not only have their been numerous violations/abuses, but a companion story by The Post’s Carol D. Leonnig quotes the chief judge on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court saying it is limited in its ability to keep these programs in check.

Suddenly, an administration which just announced new safeguards against hypothetical and potential abuses must respond to a report about actual abuses. And it must answer questions about why it has long maintained that such abuses were not happening.

Outside the administration, the revelation could very well shape the debate in the Republican Party, where Sen. Rand Paul (Ky.) and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie have effectively declared themselves the leaders of the privacy and national security wings of the party, respectively.

While Christie has taken a hard line against the “esoteric” arguments being made by libertarian-leaning members of Congress, Thursday’s revelations start to make those arguments sound a whole lot less esoteric.

The big question from here is whether these violations will be written off as minor mistakes in a vast and vital national security apparatus or as the smoking gun for an apparatus that routinely goes too far.

If you had asked us last week whether the Christies of the world or the Pauls of the world had the upper hand in this debate, we would have said the Christies.

This Friday morning, it’s a whole lot less clear that that’s the case.
Source
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 08:37 am
Excellent article today put out by EFF (the folks who have been dogging the feds to release the FISA rulings of NSA overreach)

Quote:
With each recent revelation about the NSA's spying programs government officials have tried to reassure the American people that all three branches of government—the Executive branch, the Judiciary branch, and the Congress—knowingly approved these programs and exercised rigorous oversight over them. President Obama recited this talking point just last week, saying: "as President, I've taken steps to make sure they have strong oversight by all three branches of government and clear safeguards to prevent abuse and protect the rights of the American people." With these three pillars of oversight in place, the argument goes, how could the activities possibly be illegal or invasive of our privacy?

Today, the Washington Post confirmed that two of those oversight pillars—the Executive branch and the court overseeing the spying, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA court)—don't really exist. The third pillar came down slowly over the last few weeks, with Congressional revelations about the limitations on its oversight, including what Representative Sensennbrenner called "rope a dope" classified briefings. With this, the house of government trust has fallen, and it's time to act. Join the over 500,000 people demanding an end to the unconstitutional NSA spying.

First, the Executive. After a review of internal NSA audits of the spying programs provided by Edward Snowden, the Post lays out—in stark detail—that the claims of oversight inside the Executive Branch are empty. The article reveals that an internal NSA audit not shown to Congress, the President, or the FISA Court detailed thousands of violations where the NSA collected, stored, and accessed American's communications content and other information. In one story, NSA analysts searched for all communications containing the Swedish manufacturer Ericsson and “radio” or “radar.” What's worse: the thousands of violations only include the NSA's main office in Maryland—not the other—potentially hundreds—of other NSA offices across the country. And even more importantly, the documents published by the Post reveal violations increasing every year. The news reports and documents are in direct contrast to the repeated assertions by President Obama (video), General James Clapper (video), and General Keith Alexander (video) that the US government does not listen to or look at Americans' phone calls or emails. So much for official pronouncements that oversight by the Executive was "extensive" and "robust."

Second, the FISA Court. The Post presents a second article in which the Chief Judge of the FISA Court admits that the court is unable to act as a watchdog or stop the NSA's abuses: “The FISC is forced to rely upon the accuracy of the information that is provided to the Court,” its chief, US District Judge Reggie B. Walton, said in a written statement. “The FISC does not have the capacity to investigate issues of noncompliance." Civil liberties and privacy advocates have long said that the FISA Court is a rubber stamp when it comes to the spying, but this is worse—this is the Court admitting that it cannot conduct the oversight the President and others have claimed it is doing. So much for claims by officials from the White House (video), NSA, DOJ, and Intelligence Committee members of Congress that the FISA Court is another strong pillar of oversight.

Third, the Congress. Last week, Representative Sensenbrenner complained that "the practice of classified briefings are a 'rope-a-dope operation' in which lawmakers are given information and then forbidden from speaking out about it." Members of Congress who do not serve on the Intelligence Committees in the both the House and Senate have had difficulty in obtaining documents about the NSA spying. Last week, it was even uncovered that the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Mike Rogers, failed to provide freshmen members of Congress vital documents about the NSA's activities during a key vote to reapprove the spying. Senators Wyden and Udall have been desperately trying to tell the American people what is going on, but this year the House Intelligence committee's Subcommittee on Oversight has not met once and the Senate Intelligence committee has met publicly only twice.

One, two, three pillars of government, all cited repeatedly as the justification for our trust and all now obviously nonexistent or failing miserably. It's no surprise Americans are turning against the government's explanations.

The pattern is now clear and it's getting old. With each new revelation the government comes out with a new story for why things are really just fine, only to have that assertion demolished by the next revelation. It's time for those in government who want to rebuild the trust of the American people and others all over the world to come clean and take some actual steps to rein in the NSA. And if they don't, the American people and the public, adversarial courts, must force change upon it.

We still think the first step ought to be a truly independent investigatory body that is assigned to look into the unconstitutional spying. It must be empowered to search, read and compel documents and testimony, must be required to give a public report that only redacts sensitive operational details, and must suggest specific legislation and regulatory changes to fix the problem—something like the Church Committee or maybe even the 9/11 Commission. The President made a mockery of this idea recently, by initially handing control of the "independent" investigation he announced in his press conference to the man who most famously lied to Congress and the American people about the spying, the Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

The three pillars of American trust have fallen. It's time to get a full reckoning and build a new house from the wreckage, but it has to start with some honesty.
Source
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 08:43 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Excellent article today put out by EFF (the folks who have been dogging the feds to release the FISA rulings of NSA overreach)

Quote:
With each recent revelation about the NSA's spying programs government officials have tried to reassure the American people that all three branches of government—the Executive branch, the Judiciary branch, and the Congress—knowingly approved these programs and exercised rigorous oversight over them. President Obama recited this talking point just last week, saying: "as President, I've taken steps to make sure they have strong oversight by all three branches of government and clear safeguards to prevent abuse and protect the rights of the American people." With these three pillars of oversight in place, the argument goes, how could the activities possibly be illegal or invasive of our privacy?

Today, the Washington Post confirmed that two of those oversight pillars—the Executive branch and the court overseeing the spying, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA court)—don't really exist. The third pillar came down slowly over the last few weeks, with Congressional revelations about the limitations on its oversight, including what Representative Sensennbrenner called "rope a dope" classified briefings. With this, the house of government trust has fallen, and it's time to act. Join the over 500,000 people demanding an end to the unconstitutional NSA spying.

First, the Executive. After a review of internal NSA audits of the spying programs provided by Edward Snowden, the Post lays out—in stark detail—that the claims of oversight inside the Executive Branch are empty. The article reveals that an internal NSA audit not shown to Congress, the President, or the FISA Court detailed thousands of violations where the NSA collected, stored, and accessed American's communications content and other information. In one story, NSA analysts searched for all communications containing the Swedish manufacturer Ericsson and “radio” or “radar.” What's worse: the thousands of violations only include the NSA's main office in Maryland—not the other—potentially hundreds—of other NSA offices across the country. And even more importantly, the documents published by the Post reveal violations increasing every year. The news reports and documents are in direct contrast to the repeated assertions by President Obama (video), General James Clapper (video), and General Keith Alexander (video) that the US government does not listen to or look at Americans' phone calls or emails. So much for official pronouncements that oversight by the Executive was "extensive" and "robust."

Second, the FISA Court. The Post presents a second article in which the Chief Judge of the FISA Court admits that the court is unable to act as a watchdog or stop the NSA's abuses: “The FISC is forced to rely upon the accuracy of the information that is provided to the Court,” its chief, US District Judge Reggie B. Walton, said in a written statement. “The FISC does not have the capacity to investigate issues of noncompliance." Civil liberties and privacy advocates have long said that the FISA Court is a rubber stamp when it comes to the spying, but this is worse—this is the Court admitting that it cannot conduct the oversight the President and others have claimed it is doing. So much for claims by officials from the White House (video), NSA, DOJ, and Intelligence Committee members of Congress that the FISA Court is another strong pillar of oversight.

Third, the Congress. Last week, Representative Sensenbrenner complained that "the practice of classified briefings are a 'rope-a-dope operation' in which lawmakers are given information and then forbidden from speaking out about it." Members of Congress who do not serve on the Intelligence Committees in the both the House and Senate have had difficulty in obtaining documents about the NSA spying. Last week, it was even uncovered that the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Mike Rogers, failed to provide freshmen members of Congress vital documents about the NSA's activities during a key vote to reapprove the spying. Senators Wyden and Udall have been desperately trying to tell the American people what is going on, but this year the House Intelligence committee's Subcommittee on Oversight has not met once and the Senate Intelligence committee has met publicly only twice.

One, two, three pillars of government, all cited repeatedly as the justification for our trust and all now obviously nonexistent or failing miserably. It's no surprise Americans are turning against the government's explanations.

The pattern is now clear and it's getting old. With each new revelation the government comes out with a new story for why things are really just fine, only to have that assertion demolished by the next revelation. It's time for those in government who want to rebuild the trust of the American people and others all over the world to come clean and take some actual steps to rein in the NSA. And if they don't, the American people and the public, adversarial courts, must force change upon it.

We still think the first step ought to be a truly independent investigatory body that is assigned to look into the unconstitutional spying. It must be empowered to search, read and compel documents and testimony, must be required to give a public report that only redacts sensitive operational details, and must suggest specific legislation and regulatory changes to fix the problem—something like the Church Committee or maybe even the 9/11 Commission. The President made a mockery of this idea recently, by initially handing control of the "independent" investigation he announced in his press conference to the man who most famously lied to Congress and the American people about the spying, the Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

The three pillars of American trust have fallen. It's time to get a full reckoning and build a new house from the wreckage, but it has to start with some honesty.
Source



Snowden deserves a fair trial...and, if convicted, deserves to spend a long time in prison.

If found not-guilty, he should be allowed to get on with his life.

The people moaning and groaning about the loss of privacy have a right to bitch as much as they like.

I hope the president and other officials of the government treat their nonsense with the contempt I think it deserves.

Dumping on the government is easy. Governing is difficult.
revelette
 
  2  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 09:08 am
@JPB,
Actually the article misstates what the guy from FISA said, he said they had limited ability, not no ability. It is really not their job to investigate, but to oversee. Kind of like the supreme court, they don't dig around and investigate, they only judge on what is given to them.

I agree that it was silly for the President to assign Clapper for the review. A fox in the hen house kind of a thing. Congress needs to make an independent review and oversight committee. But that oversight committee would still be the only ones to see classified information or else the NSA might as well close up shop.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 09:15 am
Our interior minster declared this week the NSA-affair to be over, since the NSA had declared they would follow the (German) laws when doing espionage here.

Fortunately, the justice minister got the idea that someone who doesn't follow the laws in the home country mustn't necessarily follow foreign laws ...
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 09:57 am
@revelette,
From Senators Udall and Wyden

Quote:
Senators Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, who serve on the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, issued the following statement regarding reports that the NSA has violated rules intended to protect Americans' privacy rights:

"The executive branch has now confirmed that the rules, regulations and court-imposed standards for protecting the privacy of Americans have been violated thousands of times each year. We have previously said that the violations of these laws and rules were more serious than had been acknowledged, and we believe Americans should know that this confirmation is just the tip of a larger iceberg.

"While Senate rules prohibit us from confirming or denying some of the details in today's press reports, the American people have a right to know more details about the scope and severity of these violations, and we hope that the executive branch will take steps to publicly provide more information as part of the honest, public debate of surveillance authorities that the Administration has said it is interested in having.

"In particular, we believe the public deserves to know more about the violations of the secret court orders that have authorized the bulk collection of Americans' phone and email records under the USA PATRIOT Act. The public should also be told more about why the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has said that the executive branch's implementation of Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act has circumvented the spirit of the law, particularly since the executive branch has declined to address this concern.

"We appreciate the candor of the chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court regarding the court's inability to independently verify statements made by the executive branch. We believe that the court is not currently structured in a way that makes it an effective check on the power of the executive branch. This highlights the need for a robust and well-staffed public advocate who could participate in significant cases before the court and evaluate and counter government assertions. Without such an advocate on the court, and without greater transparency regarding the court's rulings, the checks and balances on executive branch authority enshrined in the Constitution cannot be adequately upheld."

Emphasis added

Source
revelette
 
  2  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:12 am
@JPB,
Unless further revelations come out, a peek under the ice berg I guess, from what I can tell which was revealed in the Post, the majority of the violations were inadvertent, involving such things as mistaken numbers put in and something about "roaming." I realize you think the evidence is piling up and our government has turned into some kind of dictatorship under the guise of security, but I personally think we are living in times where we really do need to keep up with people who we suspect are plotting to commit terrorist acts and the way to do that is by tracking them. I hope that there is some kind of independent oversight review board outside of the three braches of government to oversee it to come out of all this though. However, I don't think we should be given classified information of which deals with methods and things like that. That would be like giving away the battle plans before a battle in a news report, in my opinion.
JPB
 
  3  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
I've long been a political independent with a bent towards civil libertarianism. I've never gotten involved in discussions with rabid 2Aers because I feel there can be "some limits" in modern day interpretations of amendments to the constitution that were written a couple hundred years ago. Everyone has the right to bear arms, for instance, but I don't see why joe or sally should be able to take out a large group of people in a few short seconds. There are reasonable limits that can be placed on a free society.

That was then.

For the first time in my life I'm realizing why the rabid 2Aers are so rabid. There comes a tipping point for each of us when we begin to fear our own government's transgressions more than the boogie man they are supposedly protecting us against. That tipping point varies person by person.

People in the know can't tell us what they think we need to know. People in the know believe our 4th Amendment rights have been and are being abused by our own government. People in the know feel that we have the right to know the ways our government has gotten out of control.

"Griping" infers inaction. Calling for transparency and change is not griping. "Governing" is only hard when the folks who govern take on too much and then find ways grant themselves special privileges.

I agree that Snowden deserves a fair trail. I don't think he'd get one, but I think he deserves one.

I understand your contempt, Frank. I sometimes find myself feeling contemptuous too, but then I pull back and focus on what I can do to effect change rather than waste my energies on what other people think or do.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:26 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
I realize you think the evidence is piling up and our government has turned into some kind of dictatorship under the guise of security, but I personally think we are living in times where we really do need to keep up with people who we suspect are plotting to commit terrorist acts and the way to do that is by tracking them.
Well, nearly 1,000 US-Americans and more than 22,000 foreigners are already on the no-fly lists.

I suppose, you'll get less crimes and no terrorist acts at all, if the US-agencies would monitor ALL phone calls, emails, letters etc and not just the some millions per days as done today!

And most foreigners should be put on no-fly lists ...
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:30 am
@revelette,
There is no evidence that metadata capture tools have prevented any of the 54 attacks that the government tells us have been prevented to date. Metadata capture was supposedly involved as part of the process in a dozen or so of the 54 events, but none of them relied on metadata capture or would not have been prevented without it.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:33 am
@revelette,
Also, keep in mind that the Post article is only talking about one center -- the one in VA, I believe. There are other regional centers (total number unknown) that we haven't a clue as to how many violations occur.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:47 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
Also, keep in mind that the Post article is only talking about one center -- the one in VA, I believe. There are other regional centers (total number unknown) that we haven't a clue as to how many violations occur.
It's the centre, which covers Washington, DC , and the surrounding area.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 02:54 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
"Griping" infers inaction. Calling for transparency and change is not griping. "Governing" is only hard when the folks who govern take on too much and then find ways grant themselves special privileges.


Just my opinion, but "nonsense" and "more nonsense."

Griping in no way infers inaction. Damn near all civil action contains lots and lots of griping. The entire of the equal rights for blacks and women...had griping galore.

And governing is ALWAYS difficult. Governing also requires dealing with Monday morning quarterbacks who slam damn near every action.

But, you are welcome to your opinion...and I sincerely thank you for engaging me on this issue and sharing your feelings.



Quote:
I agree that Snowden deserves a fair trail. I don't think he'd get one, but I think he deserves one.




Not sure why you think he would not get one, but I suspect it has to do with the fact that a "fair trial" will almost certainly end with him being convicted of high crimes.

A "fair trial", JPB, does not mean exhoneration.

More than likely, Snowden would be represented by the finest lawyers in this country.

So I ask: Why do you think he would not get a “fair trial?”
ehBeth
 
  4  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 03:25 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
I personally think we are living in times where we really do need to keep up with people who we suspect are plotting to commit terrorist acts


why?

more Americans kill other Americans every year than terrorists do

you should be much more afraid of other Americans than of terrorists from elsewhere
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Sat 17 Aug, 2013 04:38 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth, You have it spot on! We have more deaths from auto accidents than from terrorists. Our government has gone bonkers with the over-fear of terrorists that doesn't justify spending billions to keep track of American communication to look for that needle in a haystack.

Look at what the government has done at all airports. The TSA has double and triple checks of each passenger when most travelers are no more dangerous than driving in our cars. Overkill. They even make us take off our belts and shoes.

If they had done their homework properly, they'll find that over 90 percent of those flying don't need to be inspected for water and razors.

I've traveled the equivalent of over 25 times around this world, and when I go to the airport, I'm inspected as if I'm a potential terrorist.

DUMB.

 

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