42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Does make ya wonder, doesn't it!!!
Actually, Bolivia was the last of the Latin American countries to offer asylum - he was already in Moscow at that time.

"Obviously, he isn’t going to Venezuela or Ecuador or Bolivia or Nicaragua or Russia or wherever he ends up because he thinks they’re bastions of civil liberties protections. He’s going there because as Daniel Ellsberg said in a Washington Pot Op-Ed, this country is no longer safe for whistleblowers," Greenwald stated in an interview.


It is even less safe for people who break laws regarding national security.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:22 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The guy is definitely not what some people are making him out to be.
And exactly what are some people making him out to be? Most say, he's a whistleblower. Some say, he's a traitor ...


Some are making him out to be a "whistleblower"...some a traitor.

I think he is neither...but I acknowledge that is just my opinion.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:23 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The guy is definitely not what some people are making him out to be.
And exactly what are some people making him out to be? Most say, he's a whistleblower. Some say, he's a traitor ...


Oh...and some are making him out to be very bright.

I think they miss the mark even more than the others.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Some are making him out to be a "whistleblower"...some a traitor.
In the USA, that might be so. (I only follow the major US media.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Oh...and some are making him out to be very bright.
Really?
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Some are making him out to be a "whistleblower"...some a traitor.
In the USA, that might be so. (I only follow the major US media.)


That is what you wrote, Walter.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Oh...and some are making him out to be very bright.
Really?


Yup. I cannot understand that either.
JPB
 
  2  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

It is even less safe for people who break laws regarding national security.


Unless it's our own government who are breaking laws regarding national security. In that case it's pull out all the stops to make sure they get to keep doing just that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Never read or heard such, a lot of different and other attributes, yes, but 'bright''? Even Greenwald doesn't say so
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

It is even less safe for people who break laws regarding national security.
Any idea why the USA doesn't extradite those (former) Russians who broke the (Russian) laws and are now living in the USA?
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:49 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

It is even less safe for people who break laws regarding national security.


Unless it's our own government who are breaking laws regarding national security. In that case it's pull out all the stops to make sure they get to keep doing just that.


If you think that...you think that.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Never read or heard such, a lot of different and other attributes, yes, but 'bright''? Even Greenwald doesn't say so


Keep reading. I've seen it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

It is even less safe for people who break laws regarding national security.
Any idea why the USA doesn't extradite those (former) Russians who broke the (Russian) laws and are now living in the USA?


Nope.

You?
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 03:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Russia is not safe for whistleblowers either and is hardly a beacon of humanitarian treatments of its citizens who go against the government.


Quote:
1. A new law banning “homosexual propaganda” that effectively criminalizes gay identity

On July 11, the Russian Duma passed a law that bans the promotion of ”propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations” to minors, as Care2 blogger Steve Williams wrote. In effect, the law bans “transmitting knowledge of homosexuality in the public sphere.” Russians who break the gay gag rule face harsh fines. Non-Russians can be detained and also charged with fines.

Russia has also sought to ban gay couples from adopting Russian children, another sign of the “increasingly conservative agenda” the country has pursued since Putin again became president last year.

2. Serious concerns for the welfare of gay athletes who enter Russia

As a result of the gay gag rule, gay athletes planning to compete in the 2014 Sochi Olympics have more than reason to be fearful they could be arrested

On Thursday, Russia’s minister of sports, Vitaly L. Mutko, said that gay athletes are welcome to attend the Games but that foreign athletes who come to Russia to compete would be expected to obey the gay gag rule or face criminal prosecution. Mutko’s comments are starkly in contrast to the International Olympic Committee saying last week that it had “received assurances from the highest level of government in Russia that the legislation will not affect those attending or taking part in the Games.”

3. The prosecution and imprisonment of two Pussy Riot members

Maria Alyokhina and Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, two members of the punk collective Pussy Riot, have been imprisoned in penal colonies after being convicted last August on charges of “hooliganism motivated by religious hatred” for performing a punk prayer on the altar of Moscow’s Christ the Savior Cathedral in February of 2012. The two women, who both have young children, have been denied parole.

4. The charges against Russian lawyer Sergei Magnitsky

A whistleblower who charged that Kremlin insiders played a major role in a plan to defraud the Russian government of more than $200 million in taxes, Magnitsky died in a pretrial prison of untreated pancreatitis in 2009. Rather than investigate the allegations he had brought, the Russian government had simply arrested him. Magnitsky was posthumously convicted of tax evasion earlier this summer.

5. Show trials of activists arrested in the 2011 protests

Twelve Russians who were arrested at an anti-Putin rally last May went on trial in June. Ten appeared in the court in the glass cage or “aquarium;” their detention has been extended by six months. Two other activists remain under house arrest and cannot leave Moscow.

6. Systematic raids on foreign NGOs

Proverka means “audit” or “inspection” in Russian but, as Human Rights Watch says, in reality it is “more like a raid.” During a proverka, officials from a number of department — taxes, health, security, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Federal Migration Service — “swoop down without notice into the office of a non-governmental organization and ask lots of questions and demand loads of documents.”

According to a recent remark by Russia’s prosecutor general, all that a proverka is meant to do is to help officials “get to know” what NGOs do. As a result of these audit/inspection/raids, there have been nine court cases against NGOs for various alleged violations.


source

Snowden did break the law regardless of whether people think what he revealed should be revealed or not, he should be tried in the US for it. Instead he praises Russia for granting him asylum. It is not as though Snowden faces torture if he is brought to US, merely a trial for breaking the law. I really don't understand how even qualified for asylum. I really don't know a lot about it, but it would seem that at least Snowden should have been facing some kind of great threat rather than just a trial before qualifying for asylum.

Edward Snowden broke the law: Opposing view
JPB
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 03:23 pm
Quote:
Former NSA Boss Calls Snowden's Supporters Internet Shut-ins; Equates Transparency Activists With Al-Qaeda
from the one-foot-in-own-mouth,-one-jackboot-on-everyone-else's-neck dept
Some of the most ardent defenders of our nation's Skynet surveillance programs and other forms of cyber-overreach have one thing in common: they continue to belittle their opponents as a loose confederation of basement-dwelling loners who exist solely on The Internet. I'm sure this form of disparagement plays well with like-minded people who take comfort in belittling things they don't understand (anyone more than 5 years younger than them; The Internet; bitcoin exchange rates; bronies*).

[*TBH, I don't really understand the last two either. But I have yet to attack them purely out of naivete.]

Mike Rogers, best friend to intelligence agencies everywhere, has done this on more than one occasion. The first one he fired off during his impassioned defense of the indefensible CISPA bill, in which he referred to opponents of the bill (including the ACLU and EFF) as "14-year-olds in their basement clicking around on the internet."

In his recent impassioned defense of not cutting off funding to some of the NSA's surveillance efforts, Rogers returned to his favorite target.
Are we so small that we can only look at our Facebook likes today in this Chamber? Or are we going to stand up and find out how many lives we can save?
Now, it's former NSA director Michael Hayden's turn to call opposition to NSA spying nothing more than bunch of internet malcontents. In his speech to the Bipartisan Policy Center, Hayden speculated that apprehending Ed Snowden could result in retaliatory attacks from "hackers and transparency groups."
"If and when our government grabs Edward Snowden, and brings him back here to the United States for trial, what does this group do?" said retired air force general Michael Hayden, who from 1999 to 2009 ran the NSA and then the CIA, referring to "nihilists, anarchists, activists, Lulzsec, Anonymous, twentysomethings who haven't talked to the opposite sex in five or six years".
Setting aside the point that transparency groups like the ACLU and EFF aren't comprised of malicious hackers, the insinuation that the opposition is largely comprised of sexless young adults is nothing short of insulting. It's this sort of attitude fosters the "us vs. them" antagonism so prevalent in these agencies dealings with the public. The NSA (along with the FBI, DEA and CIA) continually declares the law is on its side and portrays its opponents as ridiculous dreamers who believe safety doesn't come with a price.

By characterizing the opposition as social misfits, the NSA's supporters hope to sway public opinion back to its side. After all, who would Joe Public find better company: anarchist twenty-somethings, most of them desperately single, or the intelligence community, which may occasionally, inadvertently overstep its bounds in its tireless quest to keep America safe?

Opposition properly belittled, Hayden went on to practically dare hackers to attack military sites -- and to equate their activities with terrorism.
"They may want to come after the US government, but frankly, you know, the dot-mil stuff is about the hardest target in the United States," Hayden said, using a shorthand for US military networks. "So if they can't create great harm to dot-mil, who are they going after? Who for them are the World Trade Centers? The World Trade Centers, as they were for al-Qaida..."
Hayden said that the loose coalition of hacker groups and activists were "less capable" of inflicting actual harm on either US networks or physical infrastructure, but they grow technologically more sophisticated. Echoing years of rhetoric that has described terrorists, Hayden added that their "demands may be unsatisfiable".
At this point, Hayden goes beyond insulting and into possibly dangerous territory by directly comparing "transparency groups" and "hackers" to al-Qaida terrorists. The best thing about this speech is knowing Hayden is still only a "former" head of the NSA. No doubt his words carry weight, but they're less likely to have a direct impact.

Reading Hayden's statements makes you wonder if those currently in the positions he formerly held also believe "transparency groups" and "activists" are "terrorists." Hayden attempted to portray his discussion of possible cyber-attacks as "purely speculative" but by couching it in "activists=terrorists" rhetoric, he simply exposed how intelligence agencies view those who actively oppose their tactics.

The War on Terror is ridiculous enough without the specious addition of opponents of domestic surveillance and supporters of Snowden's whistleblowing to the "enemies" list. Hayden's mindset indicates there's an underlying tension that encourages intelligence agencies to view millions of Americans as latent threats simply waiting for something to trigger their "terrorist" actions. Source


"If and when our government grabs Edward Snowden, and brings him back here to the United States for trial, what does this group do?" said retired air force general Michael Hayden, who from 1999 to 2009 ran the NSA and then the CIA, referring to "nihilists, anarchists, activists, Lulzsec, Anonymous, twentysomethings who haven't talked to the opposite sex in five or six years".
Um, yeah. If you can't defend your position make it about the other guy.
JTT
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 03:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank is starting a "Save the Whistleblowers" fund. All donations should be sent to him, c/o his local golf course. He'll see that the money gets to Snowden and any other brave American souls.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 03:27 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
Um, yeah. If you can't defend your position make it about the other guy.


Have you noticed any of that here at A2K, JPB?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 04:41 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
Russia is not safe for whistleblowers either and is hardly a beacon of humanitarian treatments of its citizens who go against the government.

True. So?

revelette wrote:
Snowden did break the law regardless of whether people think what he revealed should be revealed or not, he should be tried in the US for it.

Why? He didn't break the laws of Russia, were he currently resides, nor the laws of Costa Rica, Venezuela, or Bolivia, where he hopes to find asylum. Espionage against the United States is legal in these countries, just as espionage against these countries is legal, even encouraged, in the United States. So what would be unjust if Snowden spent the rest of his life as an expatriate?

revelette wrote:
It is not as though Snowden faces torture if he is brought to US,

That would depend on your definition of "torture". Private Manning, the main source of Wikileaks, may well disagree with you.

revelette wrote:
I really don't understand how even qualified for asylum.

Here's how: He is prosecuted in the USA, and he hasn't done anything that's illegal in Russia. Throughout the Cold War, the US has granted asylum to Russian dissidents under comparable circumstances.
revelette
 
  1  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 05:03 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
He didn't break the laws of Russia, were he currently resides, nor the laws of Costa Rica, Venezuela, and Bolivia, where he hopes to find asylum.


He didn't copy the classified information from Hong Kong, but inside the US before hopping on a plane to Hong Kong. He is a US citizen who illegally copied classified information which is against US laws.

Quote:
That would depend on your definition of "torture". Private Manning, the main source of Wikileaks, may well disagree with you.


Are you saying that Manning was physically or even mentally tortured? Merely being in prison is not torture by any reasonable standard. And at least he didn't run and hide in a worse country than the one he leaked about.

Quote:
He is prosecuted in the USA, and he hasn't done anything that's illegal in Russia. Throughout the Cold War, the US has granted asylum to Russian dissidents under comparable circumstances.


Like I said previously, he was in the US when he broke the law. So he should face US prosecution for his actions.

Quote:
Asylum is just not as simple as landing in a foreign country and asking for special status and permanent residency just because you did something that’s a crime at home but legal elsewhere. If it were, Canada would be overflowing with American drug users looking to escape possession charges. Specific, established international law defines who qualifies for asylum and who does not. That law is interpreted differently by every country, but there are some general standards that don’t fit easily to Snowden’s case.

The right to request asylum, and the responsibility of a government to grant it, were codified in something called the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, which most of the world signed in 1951. (In 1967, the U.S. signed a U.N. protocol expanding the original convention.) The rights of asylum-seekers and refugees derive from that convention.

For someone to qualify for asylum under international law, he or she has to meet one of the requirements for an asylum-seeker. That means, according to Georgetown Law fellow Laila Hlass, “a well-founded fear of persecution in their home country due to race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion.” While Snowden may have been motivated by his opinion, any U.S. legal case against him would likely hinge more on the fact of his leaks than whatever beliefs drove them. (Put another way, if someone sabotaged a U.S. drone base and was indicted for destruction of property, he would have a tough time claiming he’s being persecuted specifically for his opposition to drones.) And Snowden would have a tough time claiming he’s being persecuted for his race or religion.


(more at the source; the gist of it is that the asylum thing is a stretch.)
Thomas
 
  2  
Tue 6 Aug, 2013 05:27 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
He didn't copy the classified information from Hong Kong, but inside the US before hopping on a plane to Hong Kong. He is a US citizen who illegally copied classified information which is against US laws.

Welcome to the real world! American citizens do this to other countries all the time. And yet the US government gets very testy when the goverments of these countries press charges against them. Karma is a bitch, as Madonna so succinctly puts it.

Quote:
Are you saying that Manning was physically or even mentally tortured? Merely being in prison is not torture by any reasonable standard.

Arguably, yes. Manning has been imprisoned, without charges being pressed, for three years. The conditions of his imprisonment have been much harsher than those of an ordinary prisoner. For example, he's been forced to sleep naked in a room without air conditioning, which is demeaning and unnecessary.

Quote:
Asylum is just not as simple as landing in a foreign country and asking for special status and permanent residency just because you did something that’s a crime at home but legal elsewhere. If it were, Canada would be overflowing with American drug users looking to escape possession charges.

True, but if Canada accepted these drug users, that would be its decision alone. The US wouldn't have standing to complain about it. So why don't we leave the decision about Snowden to Russia? (Or Bolivia, or Venezuela, or Equador, or Costa Rica, or . . . )
 

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