Snowdon is a dummy

@Walter Hinteler,

Might be...or might not.

I am strongly hoping it is. I want MORE spying...more eavesdropping.

And I see a VERY positive effect.

The more spying and eavesdropping...the more transparency.

You guys want transparency...and then you moan and groan because it is achieved the only way it can realistically be achieved.

Every indication is that this kind of thing has been going on since people divided up into tribes, Walter...and every indication is that it will continue until there are no more borders.

For this latest revelation to come now...after the last year and a half of what has been going on...HAS TO INDICATE TO ANYONE WITH any sense at all...that it is continuing unabated.

How much stock do you put in Barack Obama's assurances that it has stopped now????

How assured do you feel that Germany, France and the United Kingdom are not spying on each other and the United States by every means available?

3 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The more spying and eavesdropping...the more transparency.

You guys want transparency...and then you moan and groan because it is achieved the only way it can realistically be achieved.

Well, I got this transparency via someone you want to get on trial.

Frank Apisa wrote:

How assured do you feel that Germany, France and the United Kingdom are not spying on each other and the United States by every means available?

I'm not assured at all - we've got transparency a bit about the UK and the USA, others will follow.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The more spying and eavesdropping...the more transparency.

You guys want transparency...and then you moan and groan because it is achieved the only way it can realistically be achieved.
Well, I got this transparency via someone you want to get on trial.

No you didn't, Walter. Snowden is impeding the transparency.

But he does deserve a fair trial...and I will continue to fight for his right to get one.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
How assured do you feel that Germany, France and the United Kingdom are not spying on each other and the United States by every means available?
I'm not assured at all - we've got transparency a bit about the UK and the USA, others will follow.

Not sure what you are saying there, Walter. I suspect you are beginning to see the point I have been trying to make for a year or more...and are dealing with your reluctance to acknowledge that.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

How much stock do you put in Barack Obama's assurances that it has stopped now????

Frank, I mean no disrespect or insult, but you seem to be on the extreme end of spectrum on this issue of spying.

If Obama just told a bold faced lie today when he said they have honored their pledge not to spy on the French president in 2013, then he is just dishonorable and I do not believe he is. I have been disappointed in him in some things but that would just beyond the pale to tell a bold faced lie.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The more spying and eavesdropping...the more transparency.

Transparency through secretiveness?

That's a non sequitur.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

I would be shocked in the truth were other than: Obama said what had to be said, France responded with what had to be responded...and neither party put too much stock in the diplomatic dialogue and maneuvering.

It was done on a world stage because it had to be done.

As far as I am concerned, nobody is kidding anybody in this area. We ARE going to spy on anyone we can...and "they" (whoever you want to include) are going to spy on anyone they can.

I'm not trying to be extreme...just realistic.

This is not going to stop. If it were going to stop...it would already have stopped...and obviously it hasn't.

The spying is not all that important. It is simply a fact of life in this complex world. I think every government knows this...and the play is played out on a world stage with everyone knowing it is a play. Mostly, they are playing at not playing.

The more we know about everyone else...and the more everyone else knows about us...

...the better for humanity.

I understand and acknowledge that intelligent, well-intentioned, reasonable people can disagree with me entirely...and very strongly.

I accept that.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The more spying and eavesdropping...the more transparency.

Transparency through secretiveness?

That's a non sequitur.

It is not a non sequitur...and it is not an especially good rendition of what I actually said.

If you disagree with what I had to say...fine. You have that right. And maybe you have a point. But I expressed my feelings on this...and I stand by what I said.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You didn't explain how you arrive at the conclusion that the more spying and eavesdropping, the more transparency.

2 Replies

@InfraBlue,

Interesting opinion in an interview @ DW: Spy scandal: 'An awful lot of this is a show'

Quote:

[...]
If you wanted to distinguish between the French and German reactions to this sort of thing, I would say the French reaction is basically cynical and hypocritical, whereas the Germans tend to be neurotic and distressed. It's a totally different cultural reaction to these allegations or revelations.
[...]
The French response is cynical in the sense that they know their country does a lot of spying, in fact they would want it to. They think it should. They understand in the world we live in today, the Americans spy on them. That's the way the world is and they don't find it particularly reprehensible.

On the hypocritical side, the French are well known as the leaders in industrial espionage in Europe, particularly against the United States. There are lots of instances of the French obtaining information, secrets from the American defense and aerospace industries in particular.
[...]
On the German side there is a deep neurosis for historical reasons because of the traumas resulting from the activities of the Gestapo and then the Stasi in eastern Germany. That's always said to have bred a neurotic fear of any sort of snooping, particularly on individuals, which is why there was such a reaction when one of Chancellor Merkel's cell phones was apparently bugged.

I think the Germans, unlike the French, feel a sense of betrayal about this. They spent all these years after World War Two rehabilitating themselves to become a model nation on the world stage, and they wanted approval from everyone, and they wanted particularly the friendship of the United States.

They believed they had won that approval and friendship, and then when they find they're being spied on – the sense of betrayal like a stab in the back.
[...]
The French have never minded stepping on American toes. They've been doing it ever since World War Two and that's part of the game. French culture is very oriented toward show rather than actual substance, one might say, whereas German culture is more substantial and less flamboyant.

It would be true that the Germans would be more concerned about a public fight with the United States about this, or anything really, than the French would. Not least because the Germans have attached so much importance toward rebuilding their relationship with Washington over so many years.

The French like to cultivate the image of an independent nation and not be dependent on Washington or anyone else.
... ... ...
Reginald Dale served as a foreign correspondent for The Financial Times and The International Herald Tribune with posts in Brussels, London, Paris and Washington. He is currently director of the Williamsburg-CSIS Global Forum, senior fellow in the CSIS Europe Program, and director of the CSIS Transatlantic Media Network.

[/i]

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

You didn't explain how you arrive at the conclusion that the more spying and eavesdropping, the more transparency.

If you are just kidding here...it is an inappropriate time for kidding.

If you are serious...no explanation will do. It is obvious.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Obviously there is a lot about that piece that I agree with...very strongly.

But I think the author missed it a bit with regard to the Germans.

I suspect the Germans spy just as much as the French...and the French spy just as much as the Americans.

It is happening...and the more we know about each other; about what we are all doing; about how we feel about the things we talk about in public versus how we feel about them in "private"...the more transparent the relationship becomes.

In any case...the best guess, as far as I am concerned is: Spying is not going away...it will not abate significantly...and almost certainly will be more pervasive and intrusive tomorrow than today...and even more so the day after that.

I may be wrong on that, but I doubt it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

But I think the author missed it a bit with regard to the Germans.

I suspect the Germans spy just as much as the French...and the French spy just as much as the Americans.

Might well be that your knowledge about what happens is better.

2 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
But I think the author missed it a bit with regard to the Germans.

I suspect the Germans spy just as much as the French...and the French spy just as much as the Americans.

Might well be that your knowledge about what happens is better.

I was not imparting knowledge, Walter...I was sharing speculation.

What you, and that author, seem to want people to accept is...

...the German people and government have so completely learned their lessons with regard to this sort of thing because of the Gestapo and Stasi...that they can be completely trusted with no need whatever for spying and checking things out.

What you, and that author, seem to want people to accept is...

...whatever a German official says in public about international policy matters is exactly what that official would say privately...and it makes no sense to check it out with any kind of spying, because they are completely reliable.

Fine. I am glad you feel that way about your government, Walter. Please try to understand that I do not want my government to be quite so accommodating to your government as you are.

Bottom line: Spying will happen; you Germans will do it; we will do it; France will do it; the United Kingdom will do it.

In my estimation, Snowden is not a dummy.

It is my opinion that Snowden deserves a fair trial on the charges that have been brought against him.

It is my hope that he gets that fair trial.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Well, we disagree here. I personally think like usual Obama was careful with his words. In other words they may not spy on the France president but they might still spy on others in the France government.

2 Replies

@revelette2,

You could be right.

But I think it just as likely the two heads of state were playing to their constituencies...saying things that were expected and had to be said.

No matter what was said by either party...I doubt the other party felt convinced that the matter had been put to rest.

0 Replies

@revelette2,

I agree that Obama must have said something he can plausibly defend, i.e. that the personal phone of Hollande is not currently being tapped.

Doesn't mean that other means of communications used by the French government and/or presidency are not being tapped.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

You didn't explain how you arrive at the conclusion that the more spying and eavesdropping, the more transparency.

If you are just kidding here...it is an inappropriate time for kidding.

If you are serious...no explanation will do. It is obvious.

Ah, the "self-evident" explanation.

Got it.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

You didn't explain how you arrive at the conclusion that the more spying and eavesdropping, the more transparency.

If you are just kidding here...it is an inappropriate time for kidding.

If you are serious...no explanation will do. It is obvious.

Ah, the "self-evident" explanation.

Got it.

Good.

I was worried about you.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Uh-huh.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Haven't you been leaving posts with links about the Germany surveillance system has been cooperating with NSA?

I think those who say all hoopla over this latest story is right, all countries seem to spy just as much as the US does. We are just the only ones to have had a Snowden to shine the spotlight on it.

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know