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Snowdon is a dummy

Forums: Politics, Snowden, Asylum, Nsa, Snowdon
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InfraBlue
 
  2  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 02:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not do "believing", Blue...but I sure enjoy watching you try to stretch this into belief.


Quote:
If there is a trial, it will be a fair trial.

There's your belief again, contrary to what you asserted above.

Frank wrote:
Be as skeptical as you want; what will happen will happen.

Just as water is wet.

Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 02:51 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
One...you do not know Manning was tortured. He may have been; he may not have been.


I'll take the word of an expert on this. He was tortured.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un<br />


The Guardian reporting on something like this!

Expert!


http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/crying-with-laughter.gif

C'mon, Izzy!


Quote:



Frank Apisa wrote:
Two...even if he was...that does not mean the trial was not fair.


Yes it does, not being tortured goes to the heat of a fair trial.


No...it doesn't.

Anyway...you do not know he was tortured...and even if he was tortured...the trial still could be fair.

But I am enjoying this diversion to Manning. Must mean you have given up the ghost on Snowden.


Quote:

If Bradley Manning's trial is your idea of a fair trial you have no understanding of the concept.


I understand the concept fine.

It is my opinion that if Snowden returns to the United States...he will get a fair trial.

It is my opinion that the last thing you or Snowden wants...is a fair trial.

It is my opinion that the "defense" you want him to invoke is not a valid defense here...or in the UK.

Sorry if that bothers you...but that is the way fair trials work.

If you think a person is able to invent a defense and that it must be accepted by a court...YOU have no idea of the concept of a fair trial.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 02:53 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not do "believing", Blue...but I sure enjoy watching you try to stretch this into belief.


Quote:
If there is a trial, it will be a fair trial.

There's your belief again, contrary to what you asserted above.

Frank wrote:
Be as skeptical as you want; what will happen will happen.

Just as water is wet.




I do not do "believing"...but if you want to continue to discuss it...I am here for as long as it takes for you to finally realize that I don't.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 02:54 pm
@revelette2,
Right on the button, Revelette.

Every indication is that Izzy and Blue do NOT want a fair trial. They want a rigged trial.

I imagine that is what Snowden wants also.

A "fair trial" is fair not only to the defendant...but to the prosecution also.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 02:57 pm
@izzythepush,
By the way...

...cannot get through to the link.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 03:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.

Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

"The special rapporteur concludes that imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone who has not been found guilty of any crime is a violation of his right to physical and psychological integrity as well as of his presumption of innocence," Mendez writes.


Juan Mendez is an expert.

And torture is no laughing matter.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 03:16 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
It is also different because Manning didn't run and hide in a different country but stayed and faced the music.


And what good did it do him? 30 years.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 03:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Every indication is that Izzy and Blue do NOT want a fair trial. They want a rigged trial.


Every indication is that Frank has no comprehension of what a fair trial is.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 03:23 pm
@izzythepush,
I do not consider torture to be a laughing matter, Izzy.

I consider The Guardian to be a laughing matter.

I consider your advocacy for Manning and Snowden to be a manifestation of an intense dislike of America...and because of that, I consider you, at times, to be a laughing matter.

I try to be reasonable with you...and courteous. I appreciate the times when we get along...and I much prefer those times to these where we are at loggerheads.

But, it is my opinion that if Edward Snowden comes back to the United States...he will get a fair trial.

I think Edward Snowden does not want a fair trial...and I think you do not want him to get a fair trial either. I think he, and most of his supporters, want him to get a rigged trial...and probably a ticker tape parade to boot.

Ain't gonna happen.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 03:25 pm
@izzythepush,
I have a very good understanding of what a fair trial is...and I am convinced that you do not want Snowden to get a fair trial.

I think you want him to get a rigged trial.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 04:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
We've gone through the looking glass here, we can't even agree of the definition of words. Clearly your definition of a free trial is one where the prosecution are allowed to torture the accused, the accused is denied witnesses and the verdict is high enough to affect viewing figures, (and probably sponsored by Bud.) That's not how most people would define it.
RABEL222
 
  -3  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 11:53 pm
@izzythepush,
Izzy you are beginning to sound an awful lot like Baldy.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 03:14 am
@RABEL222,
And you're starting to sound like Oralboy.

Your partisan thinking means, like Baldy, you only criticise stuff that happens when the other side is in power, regardless of the rights and wrongs.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 04:13 am
@izzythepush,
My definition of a "fair trial" (not free trial) is not what you are pretending that I have said.

You've gone off the edge on this, Izzy. I hope you can get back on track.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 04:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
It's a reasonable description of the trial Bradley Manning received, and you claim that's a fair trial.

Now you're just tying yourself up in knots.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 04:50 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

It's a reasonable description of the trial Bradley Manning received, and you claim that's a fair trial.


It may...or may not...be a reasonable description of what happened to Bradley Manning before his trial...but it most assuredly is not a reasonable description of the trial.

The "trial"...and what may or may not have happened before the trial, are NOT the same thing, Izzy.

The trial, as nearly as I can tell, was a fair trial.

If you have any evidence that the trial itself was not fair...tell us about it.

Quote:

Now you're just tying yourself up in knots.


No, I am not. Perhaps you think that because I am allowing you to tie yourself up in knots.

In any case, there is no legitimate reason to suppose that if Edward Snowden came back to the United States...that he would not be able to get a fair trial.

(DISCLAIMER: Bradley Manning is now Chelsea Manning...and the male pronouns I used above were in keeping with a reasonable reply to Izzy's comment. Chelsea ought now to be referred to using female pronouns...as she prefers.)

izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 07:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
The treatment is all part of the trial. Let me spell it out, if the accused has been tortured, the trial is not fair regardless of how fair the court proceedings may appear.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 08:11 am
@izzythepush,

Manning's treatment before the trial is of no more impact on whether the trial was fair or not...than his treatment as a two year old at the hands of his parents.

Get that...or don't get it.

Whichever.

If Snowden returns to the United States to face trial...there is no reason to suppose the trial will not be a fair one.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 08:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
I'm not going around in circles with you Frank. He was tortured therefore the trial was not fair. It's very simple. Now you can splutter and deny all you want much that's just how it is.

Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 20 Jun, 2015 08:26 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I'm not going around in circles with you Frank. He was tortured therefore the trial was not fair. It's very simple. Now you can splutter and deny all you want much that's just how it is.




Well you are wrong, Izzy, but that's okay. You often are.

0 Replies
 
 

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