41
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2015 09:46 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
German media reports have implicated Germany's foreign intelligence agency in helping the NSA target European interests. The revelation has prompted politicians to call for an end to the collaboration.
[...]
The BND provided signals intelligence (SIGINT) for the NSA in more than 40,000 instances, according to the report. One of the targets was the Airbus Group, an aerospace and defense manufacturer.
The type of information the BND is allowed to collect is said to be strictly regulated by German law. The German spy agency is reported to have passed Internet IP address as well as mobile phone numbers to the NSA.
Members of a German parliamentary inquiry committee stopped a meeting on Thursday after the new information as published.
[...]
Von Notz [deputy parliamentary leaders of the Greens] added that he found it "hard to imagine" that the chancellor's office was unaware of the spy agencies' cooperation. The Chancellery is responsible for overseeing the work of German intelligence agencies.
Spiegel Online, however, reported that rather than inform the chancellor's office of the cooperation, a mid-level manager at the BND requested the NSA cease to make such requests.
[...]

The report brings to light a growing trend of mass data collection by intelligence services, a revelation made available when former NSA contractor Edward Snowden leaked information regarding the US agency's practices.
BND helped NSA spy on German, European interests
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2015 07:56 pm
Quote:
David Petraeus: Ex-CIA Director Given 2 Years Probation, $100,000 Fine for Leaking Classified Info

Petraeus pled guilty in March to one federal charge for sharing classified information with his biographer and lover, Paula Broadwell. He will avoid jail time as part of the plea deal.


this guy isn't a traitor?

given Snowden the same deal/punishment and call it all even
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2015 09:02 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
this guy isn't a traitor?


He leaked the information to a girlfreind/writter who did not seems to had missued that information.

If every man who have leaked such information to a wife and or girlfriend was charge with that crime there would likely not be enought prison cells in the world to hold them all.

My mother in fact, by being at the base beauty parlour during WW2 when some high officers wives was talking was able to tell my father where his troop ship would be headed weeks before the captain opened his seal orders and then took the ship company.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 01:39 am
@BillRM,
Which is one of the reasons why Germany surrendered in 1945 instead of 1944.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 05:00 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Which is one of the reasons why Germany surrendered in 1945 instead of 1944.


Well that is an interesting theory but I had seen no surpport of the idea that German or Japaness intelligence agenies was anything but a complete failure in 1944.

Of course I have always feel that all intelligence agencies are missing a bet by not having agencies working where the wives and the girlfriends gather and talk.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 12:06 pm
The BND affair: "No better partner than the USA"
Quote:
The federal government isn't saying much about a probe into a new scandal involving Germany’s BND foreign intelligence agency. Now, the federal prosecutor’s office is planning to cooperate with the German NSA inquiry.
[...]
It appears that parliament and the federal government "were misled by the BND about the extent and the goals of its cooperation with the NSA," said Martina Renner, a Left party member of the NSA inquiry. The Social Democrats are also critical. The BND appears to be acting unilaterally, said Yasmin Fahimi, general secretary of the SPD. "That's something we can't accept," she said, adding that Chancellor Angela Merkel's office seems to have completely lost control over the BND.

When asked whether the chancellery was fully informed about the BND's activities, Seibert said that there were "technical and organizational deficits" at the BND that must immediately be remedied. He had no comment on the future of the BND's President Gerhard Schindler.
What is known, is that as early as 2008, the BND became aware of several search requests from the Americans that were considered to be problematic. The chancellor's office was first informed about this in March. The BND is forbidden from turning information about German citizens that it discovers in the course of its foreign intelligence work over to its partners.

In March, Harald Fechner, a former BND department head in charge of technical information, told the NSA inquiry that the BND had made "mistakes" but that these were rare and were not the result of any political agenda.

Common investigation planned

Promises have now been made to make more documents available
Since the affair began in the wake of Edward Snowden's revelations, the federal prosecutor has had an ongoing inspection process with relation to cooperation of foreign intelligence services. The office now intends to "incorporate the results of the investigation committee within the framework of this inspection process," said a spokeswoman from the federal prosecutor's office. She denied that any such investigation was currently underway.

The chairman of the NSA committee, Patrick Sensburg of the Christian Democrats (CDU), promised to grant the federal prosecutor access to the files and meeting protocols. The committee also plans to hear testimony from witnesses familiar with the cooperation. But history has shown that the cooperation between the BND and the committee is not easy. Some files have been redacted to the point where they're no longer legible, others have been classified, or simply not delivered. The investigation into the latest revelations is also not likely to be any easier.

The German government's former human rights commissioner, Markus Löning (FDP) has taken a new approach. Together with a Berlin-based think tank called the "Stiftung Neue Verantwortung" (SNV), or New Responsibility Foundation, he recently presented a reform agenda for intelligence services. His premise is that the parliamentary and judicial supervision of the intelligence services is outdated and has to be brought in line with modern standards. In the past 15 years, the digitalization of communication has made better supervision possible, but the state has not availed itself of these opportunities to the extent that it could, he said.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 12:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
More about the background:
Spying Close to Home: German Intelligence Under Fire for NSA Cooperation
Quote:
US intelligence spent years spying on European targets from a secretive base. Now, it seems that German intelligence was aware of the espionage -- and did nothing to stop it.


It was obvious from its construction speed just how important the new site in Bavaria was to the Americans. Only four-and-a-half months after it was begun, the new, surveillance-proof building at the Mangfall Kaserne in Bad Aibling was finished. The structure had a metal exterior and no windows, which led to its derogatory nickname among members of the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), the German foreign intelligence agency: The "tin can."

The construction project was an expression of an especially close and trusting cooperation between the American National Security Agency (NSA) and the BND. Bad Aibling had formerly been a base for US espionage before it was officially turned over to the BND in 2004. But the "tin can" was built after the handover took place.
The heads of the two intelligence agencies had agreed to continue cooperating there in secret. Together, they established joint working groups, one for the acquisition of data, called Joint Sigint Activity, and one for the analysis of that data, known as the Joint Analysis Center.

But the Germans were apparently not supposed to know everything their partners in the "tin can" were doing. The Americans weren't just interested in terrorism; they also used their technical abilities to spy on companies and agencies in Western Europe. They didn't even shy away from pursuing German targets.

The Germans noticed -- in 2008, if not sooner. But nothing was done about it until 2013, when an analysis triggered by whistleblower Edward Snowden's leaks showed that the US was using the facility to spy on German and Western European targets.

On Thursday, though, SPIEGEL ONLINE revealed that the US spying was vastly more extensive than first thought. The revelations have been met with extreme concern in the German capital -- partly because they mark the return of a scandal that two successive Merkel administrations have never truly sought to clear up.

It remains unclear how much the BND knew, and to what extent German intelligence was involved, either intentionally or not. More crucially, it demonstrates the gap in trust that exists between two close allies.

... ... ... ... ... ...

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 12:13 pm
@BillRM,
so Snowdon would have been cool if he'd given the stuff to a girlfriend and she'd passed it on?

I think it's a crazy double-standard.

Either both of them are traitors or neither is.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 12:26 pm
NEITHER is a traitor.

Both did things that were wrong...and illegal.

David Petraeus was tried; an offer was made for him to plead guilty to one count...and a sentence was agreed upon in a fair trial. Patraeus did not flee the country...nor did he steal a huge amount of classified documents and allow them to be given them to newspapers around the world.

As one poster suggested...Snowden and Petraeus ought to be treated the same. I agree.

Patraeus was given a fair trial...and is now paying the penalty the trial directed.

Snowden should be given a fair trial also...and if found guilty, he should pay the penalty the traial directs.

To suggest that the penalty should be the same for different crimes and for different circumstances...as some might suggest...is absurd.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 12:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Patraeus was given a fair trial...

Petraeus avoided a trial with that deal.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 12:57 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Patraeus was given a fair trial...

Petraeus avoided a trial with that deal.


Essentially...a plea deal is a part of the process.

The court in sentencing him took into consideration his 37 years of exemplary service to the country...and the fact that he simply presented himself for trial.

Snowden deserves a fair trial also...and if he pleads, he will have to accept what the prosecution offers...just as Petraeus did.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 01:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Essentially...a plea deal is a part of the process.
Yes. And if plea deal is accepted by both parties (and the judge), a criminal trial is avoided.

Exactly that's what Snowden's lawyers are trying to get.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 01:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Fine.

I have no trouble with them trying to get it.

But since Snowden does not have those 37 years of admirable service to his credit...and since he ran away from justice...they may not be successful.

If they are not successful...I want more than anything to see Snowden get a fair trial.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 01:40 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Okay. So someone serving a long time for USA and with an until then admirable service can avoid a trial, others shouldn't get this chance?
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 02:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I want more than anything to see Snowden get a fair trial.

Hope springs eternal.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 02:46 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Okay. So someone serving a long time for USA and with an until then admirable service can avoid a trial, others shouldn't get this chance?


NO...but in the case of Petraeus...that is what happened. And it happened in the line of acceptable standards of law.

Maybe Snowden can get the same deal...but to INSIST THAT HE MUST...is an absurdity. There is not equality of the crimes committed...and there is not equality of the factors prosecutors may consider in these prosecutions.

I want Snowden to get a fair trial.

You ought to also.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 02:46 pm
@Olivier5,
Indeed!
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 03:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I think among some other points, the point Frank is making is that Petraeus turned himself in to justice. His lawyers then worked out a deal and then the courts decided his punishment. Snowden on the other hand has not turned himself in and is in fact still a fugitive from US justice though in asylum in Russsia. Once he does turn himself in, then his lawyers can try to reach a deal and a trial could be avoided if Snowden agrees with his sentence as Petraeus did, possibly. There is a process and Snowden would try and avoid that process.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2015 11:02 pm
The value of NSA warrantless spying is doubted in dassified reports




http://i61.tinypic.com/2wmnvig.jpg
Link to report




Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Great.

Good find!

If Snowden ever comes back to the United States to stand trial for the crimes he allegedly committed...his lawyers will be able to use that information as part of his defense in a fair trial.
 

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