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Snowdon is a dummy

Forums: Politics, Snowden, Asylum, Nsa, Snowdon
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Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 07:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
... to show that he did not steal classified documents and release them to unauthorized people.
I'm rather sure that no-one really think, he got those documents a a present and thought, the journalists were authorised by USA to get them.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 07:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
... to show that he did not steal classified documents and release them to unauthorized people.
I'm rather sure that no-one really think, he got those documents a a present and thought, the journalists were authorised by USA to get them.


Okay...so...where does that leave us?

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 07:43 am
@Frank Apisa,
I think that sooner or later there'll be a deal. And though it will be a compromise, the USA will be glad: all those until now unpublished documents won't be published.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 07:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
The guy will get a fair trial...if he comes back, Walter.


For someone big on agnosticism you sure have a lot of irrational beliefs.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 07:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I think that sooner or later there'll be a deal. And though it will be a compromise, the USA will be glad: all those until now unpublished documents won't be published.


Oh...so you think the US will allow itself to be blackmailed.

I see.

Well...I don't think so.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 07:59 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The guy will get a fair trial...if he comes back, Walter.


For someone big on agnosticism you sure have a lot of irrational beliefs.


No I don't.
korkamann
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 08:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
As far as I know, the talks weren't about what people think a fair trial is. But I can be wrong, of course.


I believe Frank was speaking in a more general manner as opposed to definitive details. But then "I can be wrong" also.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 08:56 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Oh...so you think the US will allow itself to be blackmailed.

I see.

Well...I don't think so.
I don't think that blackmail is the correct word ... here, because I really think it was a kind of (sic!) whistleblowing.
Quote:
“Anytime a whistleblower is punished for pointing out waste or misconduct, it sends the signal to other employees that doing the right thing will be met with potentially harsh repercussions,” Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), chairman of the Judiciary Committee.
NB: Sen. Grassley didn't refer with his remark to Snowden but to a report that will be the focus of a Senate hearing tomorrow.
I know that the USA doesn't pay ransom demand for any hostage - why should they make a deal about some secret but outdated papers?

Having thought about it - the damage is already done, trouble with allies diminshed, so why should there be a deal? Either a trial or some solotution will be found to solve the case in Russia ...
korkamann
 
  2  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

The guy will get a fair trial...if he comes back, Walter.


I agree that Snowden will get a fair trial if only because the entire world will be watching said trial, especially those who feel strongly people had a right to know their government was spying on them. All of this will be brought up at trial. However, the most significant reason Snowden will be tried is because of his stealing governmental classified documents and that's a no-no! Despite this, I sincerely believe he will be tried in the court of mass opinion and this will have an impact of the judge and prosecutor.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:01 am
@Frank Apisa,
You sound just like a fundamentalist Frank.
revelette2
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I see a problem with such a deal. The problem is the papers are no longer in Snowden's possession. It may be a little too optimistic to believe Glen Greenwald and the others who have the papers would so willingly give them up just so Snowden can have a better chance so to speak in fair trial if he comes back to face one.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:07 am
@korkamann,
korkamann wrote:

Quote:
As far as I know, the talks weren't about what people think a fair trial is. But I can be wrong, of course.


I believe Frank was speaking in a more general manner as opposed to definitive details. But then "I can be wrong" also.


I love Walter, Korkamann...I respect him. We've met...and I consider him a good guy.

But he has tunnel vision about this thing.

He was speaking about Snowden and Snowden's lawyers having a different opinion from the government of the United States (and moi) about what constitutes a "fair trial."

So despite what he is suggesting here, we WERE talking about what people think...all of the people.

Snowden is charged with specific crimes...and should be tried on those specific charges using the applicable law. The US should prosecute as vigorously as possible...and the defense should be as vigorous as possible to defend. A jury will get the case...and decide guilty or not guilty.

Snowden and his lawyers want to use defenses not available to them under the law. The government will almost certainly object...and the judicial branch will decide for or against the defense, starting with the trial judge...on through any appeals process if the verdict is appealed by either side all the way up to the Supreme Court.

All indications are that Snowden will have the best legal defense team possible.

The notion that a fair trial will not happen seems to me to be preposterous.

I think the problem is that there are some people, many here in A2K, who want to see Snowden as a hero...and want him to go free DESPITE the law...and DESPITE a fair trial. They want an unfair trial.

Ain't gonna happen.

At this point, his best bet seems to be to stay where he is...with all the right to privacy he is getting that he would be denied here.

This is a bed he made!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Oh...so you think the US will allow itself to be blackmailed.

I see.

Well...I don't think so.
I don't think that blackmail is the correct word ... here, because I really think it was a kind of (sic!) whistleblowing.


You were saying the government will either relent...or further documents will be released.

You may think that to be whistleblowing...but it sounds like extortion or blackmail to me.

Quote:

Quote:
“Anytime a whistleblower is punished for pointing out waste or misconduct, it sends the signal to other employees that doing the right thing will be met with potentially harsh repercussions,” Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), chairman of the Judiciary Committee.
NB: Sen. Grassley didn't refer with his remark to Snowden but to a report that will be the focus of a Senate hearing tomorrow.
I know that the USA doesn't pay ransom demand for any hostage - why should they make a deal about some secret but outdated papers?

Having thought about it - the damage is already done, trouble with allies diminshed, so why should there be a deal? Either a trial or some solotution will be found to solve the case in Russia ...


Okay with me if he decides to submit to Russia's judicial system, but I think that a prohibitive long shot.

He either should stay put...or come back and face trial.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:11 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You sound just like a fundamentalist Frank.


Whatever!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:16 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Okay with me if he decides to submit to Russia's judicial system, but I think that a prohibitive long shot.
You think that he did something against a Russian law? Possible.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Okay with me if he decides to submit to Russia's judicial system, but I think that a prohibitive long shot.
You think that he did something against a Russian law? Possible.


That comment was in response to YOUR comment:

Quote:
Either a trial or some solotution will be found to solve the case in Russia ...


I thought that was what you were suggesting.

You certainly cannot be suggesting that the US will try Snowden in Russia.

What were you suggesting?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 09:21 am
@korkamann,
Bradley Manning had the eyes of the World on him, that didn't stop him being tortured or receiving an excessively punitive sentence. 10 years would have been harsh, 35 is ridiculous, a lot of murderers get less than that. For what? Exposing war crimes.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 10:55 am
@BillRM,
If it had been information on how to build a nuclear weapon and given to Iran, how would you feel about it?
RABEL222
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 10:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So you say the facts be damned.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Wed 4 Mar, 2015 11:09 am
@Olivier5,
This has what to do with wether or not he broke the law. If he had stayed in the U S and faced the music for his actions I would be with the "HERO" worshipers but he ran and I wonder just how much financial remuneration he got after the release of information and how much he will get in the future after he gets his free trial which I notice much preasure is being put on the U S by much of the world to be not guilty, no matter what the facts are. Leave him in Russia to gain the rewards he has earned. If he wants to come home let him with no strings attached on either side.
 

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