Snowdon is a dummy

Actually that in not my opinion, just explaining Frank's opinion. I seem to do that a lot.

My opinion is spying is a necessary evil, but it should be safeguarded more than it perhaps is and we shouldn't spy on our allies leaders as it does seem to cause more harm than good and I am not sure what we need to know we could not know by asking. Not even sure why we need know our allies defense systems.

I am saying this spying on allies damages the relationship with allies...

Actually, it doesn't, Olivier.

"Getting caught spying on allies" occasionally damages the relationships. But even on those occasions, it really has more to do with the general publicity given the "getting caught."

If the CIA catches an ally spying on us...no big deal. My guess is that every ally we have spies on us in one way or another. But if the newspapers get hold of the story, because someone spills the beans...well then there can be a problem.

When that happens...as it did with Snowden...everyone has to pretend that they are surpised, astonished, and offended.

Now for the moving emoticons routine...

I would say all governments feel the same way. This stupid shyt of you dont spy on a friend is only put forward by people who dont understand international politics.

Quote:

I would say all governments feel the same way. This stupid shyt of you dont spy on a friend is only put forward by people who dont understand international politics.

Strange given that we, as in the government of the US, did a lot of crying and pounding of the fists to the chest when Israel was found spying on us.

Still the issue and the problem seems not government on government spying but using the current technology to do massive spying not only on foreign populations but on our own population.

Frank Apisa wrote:

BUT IF the spying is discovered and the newspapers get hold of it...it becomes an embarrassment...and all sorts of indignation must be shown. That is what Merkel and the Germans are doing with the revelations revealed in the newspapers.

What the media knew here is that the BSI (German Office for Information Security) and the BND were investigating the spying on Merkel's phone ... after the Guardian, the NYT and Spiegel published some related Snowden documents - and that's what had been reported here first (October 23, 2013)

This stupid shyt of you dont spy on a friend is only put forward by people who dont understand international politics.

Under Section 215, the government can apply to the FISA court to compel businesses (like Verizon) to hand over user records. Here's what Slate wrote about Section 215 in a 2003 guide to the Patriot Act:



Section 215 modifies the rules on records searches. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism.


As Section 215 stands today—in the reauthorized version of the Patriot Act passed in 2005—"tangible things" (aka user data) sought in a FISA order "must be 'relevant' to an authorized preliminary or full investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a U.S. person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities." It also established congressional oversight for the FISA program, requiring the DOJ to conduct an audit of the program and the "effectiveness" of Section 215, and to submit an unclassified report on the audit to the House and Senate Committees on the Judiciary and Intelligence.



That was during the Bush administration. How has the Patriot Act changed since President Obama was elected?


Not very much. Sen. Obama voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act in 2005, a decision he defended on the campaign trail in 2008 with the caveat that some provisions contained in Section 215, like allowing the government to go through citizens' library records, "went way overboard." But in 2011 President Obama signed a bill to extend the Patriot Act's sunset clause to June 1, 2015—with Section 215 intact in its 2005 form.



Did the NSA also use Section 215 to obtain Internet data for its PRISM program?



This is less clear, but the leaked PRISM program documents seem to indicate yes. The PRISM presentation seems to imply that Section 215 applies not only to phone metadata but also to email, chats, photos, video, logins, and other online user data. Referring to the type of data the government is allowed to collect as "tangible things" allows a pretty wide berth for interpretation.

You guys were not specific. You just said, spying is illegal. I pointed out, in the US, it is not.