41
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:43 pm
@izzythepush,
The fact that they shot down civilian airliners and than deny that they did so. If they were really honest they would have admitted to the act, which they still havent done. And than of course they arnt sending troops into Ukraine. This is the Russian equivalent of chopping off heads. But dont get me wrong, I dont hate Russians only Putin and his group of warmongers just as I hate Netinheau and Bush.
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:44 pm
@Olivier5,
And you know this because your an expert?
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:48 pm
@ehBeth,
I must have missed that day, wasn't always caught up in this thread. I am not sure what his reasons were and how his reasoning could be so absolute on both very different beliefs. I guess he had seen the light and is more enlightened now.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:55 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
And you know this because your an expert?

Of sorts... My line of work is in social research (which involves a certain familiarity with the general rules and techniques of data gathering and analysis); I have worked for years in Afghanistan; and I've met with more Islamists than I cared to count.

And you know better than me because?
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I'm entitled to my informed opinion


You are entitled to your opinion...and if you want to characterize it as "informed" you are welcome to do so.


Quote:
...and you're entitled to your uniformed opinion.


There is no need for this, Olivier. Can we have a discussion without it?

My "opinion" is every bit as "informed" as yours.

Fact is, my "opinion" is that I do not know if the NSA moves are effective or not...and I do not know if they will ever be in the future, if they are not now.

You seem to think you do know.


Quote:
Quote:

That mass spying's real value may lie in other things than anti-terrorism... such as controlling political radicals, collecting industrial secrets, or sabotaging UN processes when the US don't like them, such as on climate change...


If you want to guess that...please guess it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:12 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
And you know this because your an expert?

Of sorts... My line of work is in social research (which involves a certain familiarity with the general rules and techniques of data gathering and analysis); I have worked for years in Afghanistan; and I've met with more Islamists than I cared to count.

And you know better than me because?



My guess is that you do not know if the data gathering done by the NSA has been effective or not.

I know that you cannot know if the data gathering will never be effective.
Moment-in-Time
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:33 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:

The point is that mass spying will never be efficient. And it is dangerous for the US democracy and diplomacy.


Wow, that's quite an explosive statement, Oliver5. Surely one cannot say with absolute certitude that "mass spying will never be efficient." Like how can one's assurance know this as a foregone conclusion? One thing we can be doubly sure of countries will never cease spying on each other. Also, one cannot be absolutely sure what improvements will be made with the introduction of new technology advancement.

How, pray tell, is mass spying "dangerous for the US democracy and diplomacy" at this time?! We know spying on individual citizens is very bad, but let's face reality, every time we walk out the door we are recorded by cameras on the street, at the ATM, Library, the Mall, Schools, etc. We are followed on the Internet and a profile is created of us; if you think not, just try searching for a product, and pretty soon that same product with different prices from different companies will be following you all over the place. Credit cards have very personal information. One can pay a company to find out much about people's history, if there were a crime committed, if one spent time incarcerated. The bulk information gathered on citizens by NSA is not as critical to me as my being on camera at the ATM machine, because realistically, the odds are my personal mail or calls will never be seen by NSA, and if so, my emails/calls will be meaningless to them....NSA just doesn't have the time to read every e-mail or listen in on every call. The system wasn't designed for humans to read billions of mail or listen in on same number of calls. NSA follows patterns of suspected individuals.

I, personally, am glad NSA is doing everything in its power to apprehend terrorists. Sometimes one has to lose some of their basic rights if the cause is worth it in the long run. As a result of new technology, our culture is undergoing drastic change, in more ways than one.....

Look at the latest terrorist plot in Australia! If my loved one can/will be saved because of NSA's spying, then more power to NSA!
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:57 pm
@revelette2,
I'd suggest re-reading the beginning of the thread. There were some shifts of opinion going on as more information about Mr. Snowdon came out, and as more information came out about U.S. government actions.

People changed their minds about Snowdon and about the U.S., in some cases because of information posted on this thread.

It does seem that as time has gone on, fewer posters follow the links people provide as new information comes to light. Others follow the links and continue to review and refine their views on the subject of Snowdon and spying by the American government.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:16 pm
@RABEL222,
Exactly, there's enough bad stuff about Russia as it is, without the need for making **** up about them cutting off heads.
BillRM
 
  4  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:16 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
How, pray tell, is mass spying "dangerous for the US democracy and diplomacy" at this time?!


See the history of Hoover blackmailing congressmen and presidents to answer that question!!!!!

Quote:
I, personally, am glad NSA is doing everything in its power to apprehend terrorists. Sometimes one has to lose some of their basic rights if the cause is worth it in the long run. As a result of new technology, our culture is undergoing drastic change, in more ways than one....



NSA is doing everything to keep the blank check we have given them after 911 as their concerns, at least in my opinion, is more of not going back to the large budget cuts after the cold war ended then to deal with a few thousands terrorists.

As far as not fighting the SOBS when they try to take basic rights away on the excuse of the great danger or terrorism you got to be kidding me.

I grow up in the middle of the cold war where there was drills at schools of ducking under our desks in case of atom bombing!!!!

Somehow with thousands of missiles aim at our cities that could be launch at any time we did not give up our freedoms but a few thousands terrorists call for giving up basic freedoms!!!!!!!

Quote:
NSA just doesn't have the time to read every e-mail or listen in on every call.


They and those in power surely can however go after anyone they do not care for doing by hitting a few keys and then doing such things as discrediting people by leaking their porn viewing habits and in that regard see some of the papers released by Snowden of such a program.

0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 04:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
My line of work is in social research (which involves a certain familiarity with the general rules and techniques of data gathering and analysis;


Happy Friday morning, Oliver5.

Data gathering methods and analysis covers quite a wide field; I had an introductory course primarily for marketing businesses.....I had my heart set on studying for the M.B.A. but after my Sophomore Year, I soon dropped it for the pure sciences.

Quote:
I have worked for years in Afghanistan; and I've met with more Islamists than I cared to count.


I have met many Muslims of the Islamist faith, mostly here in New York/New Jersey; also, on campus where not only are they students, but are often seen going to Mosque to pray. (It's not really a Mosque but the building does have an imposing dome; it's an interfaith building which houses all Denominations, i.e., people of Jewish, Christian, and Islamist Faiths etc.)

I have never been to Asia so I guess that lets Afghanistan out; however, right after we were married, my husband and I had our Honeymoon trip to Egypt paid for by his parents. We visited the Great Sphinx, one of the Seven Wonders of the World; we also visited Luxor, the Valley of the Kings, and the most famous Egyptian pyramids found at Giza, on the outskirts of Cairo.

I've been to Rome and visited the Vatican Museums; I've also visited the UK, a country I'm in love with. (Being something of a dreamer, in my mind, the British Royals are super special.) Oh, I've attended workshops at McGill University in Canada a couple of times.

Traveling, data gathering and analysis, does not make me an expert on mass spying. Without revealing too much regarding your "secret" work, perhaps you might key us in (just a little bit) how you are so au courant with respect to mass spying. Thanks.


BillRM
 
  4  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 05:24 am
Quote:


http://www.theweek.co.uk/technology/60074/spies-undermining-efforts-to-monitor-dark-web

While some at GCHQ and the NSA try to crack encrypted networks, others may be undoing their work
LAST UPDATED AT 09:51 ON Fri 22 Aug 2014
See related:
Dark net: what lurks beneath the surface of the internet?
British and American intelligence agents are undermining their colleagues' efforts to monitor and control the so-called "dark web" – a hidden zone of the internet where activities and identities are concealed – according to the developer of software designed to allow people to browse anonymously

Andrew Lewman, the Tor Project's executive director, says he believes NSA and GCHQ agents have told his software engineers about flaws they uncovered in the program's code.

By doing so, they have given his team the opportunity to patch the cracks and maintain the anonymity of the network, Lewman said.

"There are plenty of people in both organisations who can anonymously leak data to us to say maybe you should look here, maybe you should look at this to fix this," Lewman said in an interview with the BBC. "And they have."

The Tor browser was originally designed by the US Naval Research Laboratory, and still receives funding from the US State Department. It is used by military, activists and some businesses to browse the internet confidentially. But it has also been used for illegal activities such as buying and selling drugs, trafficking illegal pornography and trading child abuse images.

Lewman said he receives anonymous messages about problems with the browser's code on "probably a monthly" basis, but cannot prove that they came from the NSA or GCHQ.

"It's a hunch," he said. "Obviously we are not going to ask for any details… [But] the fact that we take a completely anonymous bug report allows them to report to us safely."

He added: "It's sort of funny because it also came out that GCHQ heavily relies on Tor working to be able to do a lot of their operations.

"So, you can imagine one part of GCHQ is trying to break Tor, the other part is trying to make sure it's not broken because they're relying on it to do their work."

GCHQ responded to the allegations by saying: "It is long-standing policy that we do not comment on intelligence matters. Furthermore, all of GCHQ's work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework, which ensures that our activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate." ·

For further concise, bala


Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/technology/60074/spies-undermining-efforts-to-monitor-dark-web#ixzz3DlAKYMbC
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 06:37 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
I have met many Muslims of the Islamist faith

I mean 'Islamist' in the political sense: people who adhere to the political ideology called Islamism, ie who believe in jihad, caliphates and sh!t... Do you know many jihadists and ex-jihadists, Marla?

That doesn't make me an expert in mass spying nor even in terrorism, but it's a little more than 'traveling'.

As for data gathering, a basic rule of thumb is: don't collect data just because you can. Collect it for a purpose and tailor your data needs to that purpose, because data collection and storage costs money. That's why mass spying is vastly less efficient than targeted spying.

Works for other things too. Don't collect leaves or pebbles just because you can...
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 06:51 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
How, pray tell, is mass spying "dangerous for the US democracy and diplomacy" at this time?!

Isn't that obvious? When NATO needs to be strong because of Putin or ISIS, Obama has nothing better to do than spying on Merkel? Really? And how is a democracy supposed to function if the (theoretically sovereign) people is spied on by its servants the politicians? If the legislative and judiciary branches of government are spied on by the executive? The NSA can pick and chose your next president, if they want to...

Quote:
I, personally, am glad NSA is doing everything in its power to apprehend terrorists. Sometimes one has to lose some of their basic rights if the cause is worth it in the long run.

Worth it? What is worth it in this case? Terrorism is a minor threat. Statistically, you are at greater risk of dying of laughter or flue. You guys are over-reacting. The NSA should be used to stop school killings and other crimes instead. Of course it will never be able to do that either but at least that would be worth trying.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 07:07 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I mean 'Islamist' in the political sense: people who adhere to the political ideology called Islamism, ie who believe in jihad, caliphates and sh!t...
I think that's how the term is used generally.
[In former times, in colloquial univeristy German, Islamic scientists were called 'Islamists' - similar to 'Anglists' (those who studied English) or 'Romanists' (studying French)]
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 07:33 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
The NSA should be used to stop school killings and other crimes instead. Of course it will never be able to do that either but at least that would be worth trying.


Speaking of which, another great expression of America's freedom.

Quote:
A grandfather shot dead his daughter and her six children before taking his own life at a home in Bell, Florida, police have said.

The children range in age from three months to 10 years old, said Gilchrist County Sheriff Robert Schultz.

The authorities have identified the gunman as Don Charles Spirit, 51.

Schultz said a colleague responded to reports of a shooting on Thursday afternoon and on arrival made contact with Spirit before he killed himself.
"I haven't seen anything like this at all," said Schultz.

"This county, this community is going to be devastated from this. It is a small county, we are all family here.

"We're asking for prayers for this community and the families involved."

After Spirit took his own life, police found the other seven bodies in the house, although there were other people there who were still alive.

Spirit, who was known to police previously, was the only suspect, said Schultz.

According to the Florida Department of Corrections, the grandfather was once behind bars for a gun charge, and was released in February 2006.

Bell is a town of about 350 people located 30 miles west of Gainesville.

Multiple shootings in the US have happened in schools, colleges, military institutions, shopping malls and homes. Each time innocent victims die, but this rural community has been shaken by the multiple killing, says the BBC's Tom Esslemont in Washington.

It is likely to reopen a painful debate about gun ownership, but is unlikely to change deeply entrenched polarised views, our correspondent adds.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29266609
revelette2
 
  4  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 07:40 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
When NATO needs to be strong because of Putin or ISIS, Obama has nothing better to do than spying on Merkel


What makes you think Obama is spying on Merkel now? I know they did at one time. But they have stopped it.



Quote:
BERLIN—President Barack Obama sought to reassure the German public on Saturday, pledging Chancellor Angela Merkel won't be a target of U.S. spying any longer while he is president.

Speaking a day after he promised to overhaul U.S. spy practices, the president said, "I don't want to harm that relationship by a surveillance mechanism that somehow would impede the kind of communication and trust that we have" during an interview with a German public broadcaster ZDF.

"As long as I'm president of the United States, the chancellor of Germany won't have to worry about this," he added.

Mr. Obama on Friday presented a new directive curbing U.S. government data collection. The changes follow sensitive leaks about U.S. espionage by former government contractor Edward Snowden.

In October, U.S. officials said an internal review revealed that Ms. Merkel and some 35 world leaders were monitored by the U.S. National Security Agency. A senior administration official said the U.S. has ended monitoring of dozens of foreign leaders.

Ms. Merkel has said the NSA's actions have tested the relationship between the two countries.

Mr. Obama's plan will end the government's mass collection of American phone data and offer new protections for non-U.S. citizens. The directive also bars spying on the heads of state of close U.S. allies.

However, a member of Ms. Merkel's government, German Justice Minister Heiko Maas, said the changes don't go far enough.

"Only once we have signed a legally binding agreement that protects all citizens can lost trust be won back," Mr. Maas told Sunday paper Bild am Sonntag.

Ms. Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said Friday the German government welcomes Mr. Obama's speech, but he added, "The German government still thinks that German law must be respected on German soil, also and in particular by our close partners and allies."

Germany will continue talks about the "new and clear" basis for the cooperation between the intelligence services based on Mr. Obama's speech, said Mr. Seibert.

Germany has lobbied hard for a "no-spy" agreement with the U.S., German officials said, adding they want to include tough data-privacy measures in a trans-Atlantic trade pact between the U.S. and Europe.

Mr. Obama said on German TV that the U.S. is better equipped than most countries to monitor the flow of data around the world—and, as a consequence, has a greater responsibility to respect privacy concerns.

"Our capabilities are significantly greater than many other countries'," he said, adding "In some ways we underwrite a lot of the security needs and defenses of countries around the world."

"Because we have these greater capabilities, it means that we have greater responsibilities when it comes to privacy protection," Mr. Obama said.

But he said there is "no point" in having an intelligence service "if you are restricted to the things that you can read in the New York Times or DER SPIEGEL."


source
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 07:46 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I mean 'Islamist' in the political sense: people who adhere to the political ideology called Islamism, ie who believe in jihad, caliphates and sh!t... Do you know many jihadists and ex-jihadists, Marla?


The correct term would then be Muslim extremist.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 08:22 am
@revelette2,
The word Islamist is a recognised term for violent Moslem extremists.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 08:50 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
Muslim extremist

That would be a value judgement, like calling the Christian right "Christian extremists".

In any case, "Islamism" and "Islamists" are the terms preferred by European scholars to describe the ideology(ies) and its followers, respectively.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Snowdon is a dummy
  3. » Page 546
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 06/26/2024 at 01:08:54