41
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 02:36 pm
@Olivier5,
I said "very weak" in response to your saying FBI agents were luring that Mojo (whatever) guy to buy guns.

Quote:
This Mojo guy was not a 'professional' terrorist. He did not bomb or kill or terrorize anyone. He's just a cook who was lured by FBI into buying guns illegally, and expressed wishes to fund / recruit for ISIS to FBI agents posing as volunteers. Which is why his level of sophistication in hiding his tracks is zero; he tweeted about his plans for heaven's sake.


It was not agents but informants of which you already conceded. Informants are in the inside, giving inside information to officers or in this case, agents. If it was like you said of which you had no proof whatsoever, it would have been undercover agents conducting a sting operation. (or something like that)

But I just read your later post and I see the informants were cooperating with the FBI agents in a sting operation, so I was wrong. However, the agents were not posing as volunteers. I guess somewhere along the way, the informants must have said or done something so had to cooperate with the FBI in exchange for a lighter sentence or something.
BillRM
 
  4  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 02:48 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
t was not agents but informants of which you already conceded.


If they as is likely paid informants who care if they was or was not fbi special agents they was acting under the control and instructions of fbi agents and was indeed agents of the FBI in that sense.

IE it does not made one bit of difference one way or another.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 02:57 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Your need to belittle a discussion opponent is noted. If it makes your life more bearable by doing that...do so.

Talking to yourself, Frank?



Nope. To you, Olivier.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 02:58 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

People's motivations help explain their take, and often determine their biases.


They certainly do.



0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:02 pm
@BillRM,
Its possible I missed it, from where did you get the idea the informants were paid?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:02 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:

http://www.pbs.org/pov/betterthisworld/photo_gallery_background.php?photo=4#.VBn149ddW2A


According to a recent article in The New Yorker, the FBI maintains more than 15,000 informants. These informants can collect evidence that government agents would need court orders to collect. The informants are often paid thousands of dollars — in some cases even hundreds of thousands of dollars — in retainers.

nformants are not official employees of the FBI, but many receive compensation for their services; they are screened for suitability before they enter into relationships with the FBI and are screened periodically thereafter.

A 2005 report from the Office of the Inspector General investigating FBI compliance with the attorney general's investigative guidelines found significant problems in the FBI's compliance with the guidelines' provisions, including serious shortcomings in the supervision and administration of the criminal informant program. Specifically, it was found that cumbersome paperwork and inadequate support from FBI headquarters and certain field offices led agents either to avoid using informants or to use informants who were not properly registered.
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:04 pm
@BillRM,
In other words, you assume they were paid.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I just thought you were making a mental note to yourself here.... You tend to belittle your opponents quite systematically.
BillRM
 
  4  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:12 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
n other words, you assume they were paid.


Most of FBI informants are paid so why would you assume they are doing such work for free?
BillRM
 
  4  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:25 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants


The bureau's answer has been a strategy known variously as "preemption," "prevention," and "disruption"—identifying and neutralizing potential lone wolves before they move toward action. To that end, FBI agents and informants target not just active jihadists, but tens of thousands of law-abiding people, seeking to identify those disgruntled few who might participate in a plot given the means and the opportunity. And then, in case after case, the government provides the plot, the means, and the opportunity.

Here's how it works: Informants report to their handlers on people who have, say, made statements sympathizing with terrorists. Those names are then cross-referenced with existing intelligence data, such as immigration and criminal records. FBI agents may then assign an undercover operative to approach the target by posing as a radical. Sometimes the operative will propose a plot, provide explosives, even lead the target in a fake oath to Al Qaeda. Once enough incriminating information has been gathered, there's an arrest—and a press conference announcing another foiled plot.

If this sounds vaguely familiar, it's because such sting operations are a fixture in the headlines. Remember the Washington Metro bombing plot? The New York subway plot? The guys who planned to blow up the Sears Tower? The teenager seeking to bomb a Portland Christmas tree lighting? Each of those plots, and dozens more across the nation, was led by an FBI asset.

Over the past year, Mother Jones and the Investigative Reporting Program at the University of California-Berkeley have examined prosecutions of 508 defendants in terrorism-related cases, as defined by the Department of Justice. Our investigation found:

Nearly half the prosecutions involved the use of informants, many of them incentivized by money (operatives can be paid as much as $100,000 per assignment) or the need to work off criminal or immigration violations. (For more on the details of those 508 cases, see our charts page and searchable database.)
Sting operations resulted in prosecutions against 158 defendants. Of that total, 49 defendants participated in plots led by an agent provocateur—an FBI operative instigating terrorist action.
With three exceptions, all of the high-profile domestic terror plots of the last decade were actually FBI stings. (The exceptions are Najibullah Zazi, who came close to bombing the New York City subway system in September 2009; Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, an Egyptian who opened fire on the El-Al ticket counter at the Los Angeles airport; and failed Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad.)
In many sting cases, key encounters between the informant and the target were not recorded—making it hard for defendants claiming entrapment to prove their case.
Terrorism-related charges are so difficult to beat in court, even when the evidence is thin, that defendants often don't risk a trial.
"The problem with the cases we're talking about is that defendants would not have done anything if not kicked in the ass by government agents," says Martin Stolar, a lawyer who represented a man caught in a 2004 sting involving New York's Herald Square subway station. "They're creating crimes to solve crimes so they can claim a victory in the war on terror." In the FBI's defense, supporters argue that the bureau will only pursue a case when the target clearly is willing to participate in violent action. "If you're doing a sting right, you're offering the target multiple chances to back out," says Peter Ahearn, a retired FBI special agent who directed the Western New York Joint Terrorism Task Force and oversaw the investigation of the Lackawanna Six, an alleged terror cell near Buffalo, New York. "Real people don't say, 'Yeah, let's go bomb that place.' Real people call the cops."

Even so, Ahearn concedes that the uptick in successful terrorism stings might not be evidence of a growing threat so much as a greater focus by the FBI. "If you concentrate more people on a problem," Ahearn says, "you'll find more problems." Today, the FBI follows up on literally every single call, email, or other terrorism-related tip it receives for fear of missing a clue.

And the emphasis is unlikely to shift anytime soon. Sting operations have "proven to be an essential law enforcement tool in uncovering and preventing potential terror attacks," said Attorney General Eric Holder in a December 2010 speech to Muslim lawyers and civil rights activists. President Obama's Department of Justice has announced sting-related prosecutions at an even faster clip than the Bush administration, with 44 new cases since January 2009. With the war on terror an open-ended and nebulous conflict, the FBI doesn't have an exit strategy.


LOCATED DEEP IN A WOODED area on a Marine Corps base west of Interstate 95—a setting familiar from Silence of the Lambs—is the sandstone fortress of the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia. This building, erected under J. Edgar Hoover, is where to this day every FBI special agent is trained.

J. Stephen Tidwell graduated from the academy in 1981 and over the years rose to executive assistant director, one of the 10 highest positions in the FBI; in 2008, he coauthored the Domestic Investigations and Operations Guide, or DIOG (PDF), the manual for what agents and informants can and cannot do.

A former Texas cop, Tidwell is a barrel-chested man with close-cropped salt-and-pepper hair. He's led some of the FBI's highest-profile investigations, including the DC sniper case and the probe of the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon.

On a cloudy spring afternoon, Tidwell, dressed in khakis and a blue sweater, drove me in his black Ford F-350 through Hogan's Alley—a 10-acre Potemkin village with houses, bars, stores, and a hotel. Agents learning the craft role-play stings, busts, and bank robberies here, and inside jokes and pop-culture references litter the place (which itself gets its name from a 19th-century comic strip). At one end of the town is the Biograph Theater, named for the Chicago movie house where FBI agents gunned down John Dillinger in 1934. ("See," Tidwell says. "The FBI has a sense of humor.")

Inside the academy, a more somber tone prevails. Plaques everywhere honor agents who have been killed on the job. Tidwell takes me to one that commemorates John O'Neill, who became chief of the bureau's then-tiny counterterrorism section in 1995. For years before retiring from the FBI, O'Neill warned of Al Qaeda's increasing threat, to no avail. In late August 2001, he left the bureau to take a job as head of security for the World Trade Center, where he died 19 days later at the hands of the enemy he'd told the FBI it should fear. The agents he had trained would end up reshaping the bureau's counterterrorism operations.

Before 9/11, FBI agents considered chasing terrorists an undesirable career path, and their training did not distinguish between Islamic terror tactics and those employed by groups like the Irish Republican Army. "A bombing case is a bombing case," Dale Watson, who was the FBI's counterterrorism chief on 9/11, said in a December 2004 deposition. The FBI also did not train agents in Arabic or require most of them to learn about radical Islam. "I don't necessarily think you have to know everything about the Ku Klux Klan to investigate a church bombing," Watson said. The FBI had only one Arabic speaker in New York City and fewer than 10 nationwide.

But shortly after 9/11, President George W. Bush called FBI Director Robert Mueller to Camp David. His message: never again. And so Mueller committed to turn the FBI into a counterintelligence organization rivaling Britain's MI5 in its capacity for surveillance and clandestine activity. Federal law enforcement went from a focus on fighting crime to preventing crime; instead of accountants and lawyers cracking crime syndicates, the bureau would focus on Jack Bauer-style operators disrupting terror groups.

To help run the counterterrorism section, Mueller drafted Arthur Cummings, a former Navy SEAL who'd investigated the first World Trade Center bombing. Cummings pressed agents to focus not only on their immediate target, but also on the extended web of people linked to the target. "We're looking for the sympathizer who wants to become an operator, and we want to catch them when they step over that line to operator," Cummings says. "Sometimes, that step takes 10 years. Other times, it takes 10 minutes." The FBI's goal is to create a hostile environment for terrorist recruiters and operators—by raising the risk of even the smallest step toward violent action. It's a form of deterrence, an adaptation of the "broken windows" theory used to fight urban crime. Advocates insist it has been effective, noting that there hasn't been a successful large-scale attack against the United States since 9/11. But what can't be answered—as many former and current FBI agents acknowledge—is how many of the bureau's targets would have taken the step over the line at all, were it not for an informant.


SO HOW DID THE FBI BUILD its informant network? It began by asking where US Muslims lived. Four years after 9/11, the bureau brought in a CIA expert on intelligence-gathering methods named Phil Mudd. His tool of choice was a data-mining system using commercially available information, as well as government data such as immigration records, to pinpoint the demographics of specific ethnic and religious communities—say, Iranians in Beverly Hills or Pakistanis in the DC suburbs.

The FBI officially denies that the program, known as Domain Management, works this way—its purpose, the bureau says, is simply to help allocate resources according to threats. But FBI agents told me that with counterterrorism as the bureau's top priority, agents often look for those threats in Muslim communities—and Domain Management allows them to quickly understand those communities' makeup. One high-ranking former FBI official jokingly referred to it as "Battlefield Management."

Some FBI veterans criticized the program as unproductive and intrusive—one told Mudd during a high-level meeting that he'd pushed the bureau to "the dark side." That tension has its roots in the stark difference between the FBI and the CIA: While the latter is free to operate internationally without regard to constitutional rights, the FBI must respect those rights in domestic investigations, and Mudd's critics saw the idea of targeting Americans based on their ethnicity and religion as a step too far.

.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  5  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
When you declare someone a lier you automatically win any argument you are involved in. Dont you know anything Frank?
BillRM
 
  4  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:47 pm
@BillRM,
Here is link that break down the US terrorist cases that might be interesting to the readers/posters of this thread.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/terror-trials-numbers
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:48 pm
@RABEL222,
Frank still hasn't explained how he KNEW Walter's report was authored by some think tank other than Intercept, and yet STATED it was from the Intercept, and yet didn't lie...

Saying something you know is not true--that's lying for me. What is it for you, Rabel? Good salesmanship?
RABEL222
 
  4  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Oliver is right. Why? I hope he stays in Russia until they decide to cut his head off. If he comes back my tax dollars will pay for the 5 0r 10 fancy $1,000,000 a month lawyers to defend him. It aint worth it. I dont care if every country in the world thinks he is a hero. In my book he is a slime ball.
BillRM
 
  4  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:55 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
I dont care if every country in the world thinks he is a hero.


That included one hell of a lot of Americans.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 04:14 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I just thought you were making a mental note to yourself here.... You tend to belittle your opponents quite systematically.


I try not to do that, Olivier...but you do it regularly.

If anything, I allow people like you to belittle themselves.

You do that quite nicely...and quite often.


0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 04:14 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

When you declare someone a lier you automatically win any argument you are involved in. Dont you know anything Frank?


He is a laugh, Rabel...isn't he.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 04:17 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Frank still hasn't explained how he KNEW Walter's report was authored by some think tank other than Intercept, and yet STATED it was from the Intercept, and yet didn't lie...


I did not state that, Olivier. I stated that the report from The Intercept was his source...the source to which he linked.

Read what I actually said...rather than what you want to pretend I said.


Quote:
Saying something you know is not true--that's lying for me. What is it for you, Rabel? Good salesmanship?


I did not lie, Olivier...but your need to portray me as a liar is great. It must fill some void in your life.

So do it.

I will, however, continue to point out that you are wrong.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 04:34 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

Oliver is right. Why? I hope he stays in Russia until they decide to cut his head off.


What do you think Russia is like? It's not like IS occupied Iraq. What makes you think the Russians chop off heads?
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 06:44 pm
@BillRM,
I don't assume they work for free or are paid. I actually don't know anymore about the subject than what I have already said and read in the two articles posted and the motherjones article.

After reading the motherjones article, I must say, it does seem the lesser of evils to track electronic devises than to use informants, however, it seems the informant system in the FBI has been around for quite some time.
 

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