42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
RABEL222
 
  -1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 02:55 pm
@izzythepush,
U first.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 02:58 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
No. You are right on. It is the people who piously say love it or leave it no matter how fuked up it is that dont understand democracy.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 03:18 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

No. You are right on. It is the people who piously say love it or leave it no matter how fuked up it is that dont understand democracy.


Name somebody here who has said "love it or leave it", Rabel.

No one here has suggested that...or even come close to doing so.

But apparently the America haters are so anxious to justify their unrelenting savaging of this country...that they have to pretend some people are doing so.

If you find it necessary, or satisfying in some way, to scorn and condemn America at damn near every opportunity...do so. It still is a country with enough freedom so that people can do what people like that are doing...and do it with the knowledge that they have complete freedom to do it. Say whatever you want to about us, our government, any elected or appointed officials...and you will do so with complete impunity.

The position opposite to what MiT and I are taking, Rabel...the one you are taking...is an absurd position...one that could never be taken in a place as disgusting as people like you seem to think America is or is becoming.

So take your defective, self-serving understanding of democracy and try to sell it where they sell the other snake oil people are peddling.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 03:38 pm
@RABEL222,
So you don't consider the continued existence of Guantanamo Bay, the forced landing of the Bolivian presidential plane, or the case of Gary McKinnon facts?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 09:27 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
The lying itself is wrongful activity. Lying under oath and all that legal stuff.

Maybe someone could bust them for speeding and jaywalking too.

The fact that the only example of wrongdoing that anyone can come up with is "some guy lying before Congress" is a pretty strong indication that the NSA has not done anything wrong.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 09:28 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Nowhere have I read that Obama approves of "Detention and Torture." He tried to have some GITMO prisoners tried here in the US and wanted to release those who had not committed crimes , but was rebuffed by Congress. He definitely does not approve of these methods.

Mr. Obama opposes torture, but he approves of detaining POWs until the end of the war.

He has not tried to release any such POW, despite their not being charged with a crime.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 09:28 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Unless some earth shattering event surfaces regarding Hillary or something unforeseen develops, it's doubtful any Dem has a chance against her, or the GOP, who has mostly given up any chance of obtaining the White House in 2016.

Actually no. The 2012 gun control debacle has pretty much guaranteed that the Republicans will retake the White House in 2016.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 10:00 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Name somebody here who has said "love it or leave it", Rabel.[/quote

You have Frank several times. The fact that you deny that this is what you meant dosent mean shyt because people read between the lines. Anyone can interpret what you really mean even though you dont say it in those terms. On more than one occasion you have told both me and CI this. I dont really care if you think it is unamerican to criticize the government. When I see what I consider wrongdoing I will point it out. If you dont like it put me on ignore but dont try to tell me that I cant read and reason as well as the next guy.

RABEL222
 
  -1  
Tue 12 Aug, 2014 10:02 pm
@izzythepush,
Izzy, you know I never said any of those things. Are you coming around to the point of view of the conservative posters who post lies in an attempt to put down people they disagree with. Well so be it.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 02:12 am
@RABEL222,
I've never been on the side of the conservative posters. You implied I'd not posted anything factual, so I just repeated some of the points I made.

Of course Obama is significantly better than his predecessor or the alternative, but that does not mean one should turn a blind eye for partisan reasons.

The forced landing of the Bolivian presidential plane did more to damage America's reputation than anything disclosed by Snowden.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 04:17 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

Quote:
Name somebody here who has said "love it or leave it", Rabel.


You have Frank several times.


No I have not...and you know it.

Quote:
The fact that you deny that this is what you meant dosent mean shyt because people read between the lines.


Don't read between the lines, Rabel. Read the words. At no point can anything I have said logically be interpreted as "Love it or leave it."

If someone, however, is constantly complaining about how horrible a particular place is...it is entirely reasonable to suggest the person consider going somewhere else...which is all I have done.



Quote:
Anyone can interpret what you really mean even though you dont say it in those terms.


If they want to corrupt what is being said so they can argue against the corrupt characterization, they can. I would expect more of you. I do expect more of you...but apparently I am going to continue to be disappointed in that regard.

Quote:
On more than one occasion you have told both me and CI this.


I have NEVER told you, ci, or anyone else that they must love America or leave it. NEVER. I have even said that I criticize America, because I certainly do not think it is prefect...and that it does have many faults.

I have NEVER told you, ci, or anyone else that they must love America or leave it...nor have I ever intimated that.

Why do you not be honest on this point...rather than creating a fictional characterization of what I have said...and then arguing against that fiction?


Quote:
I dont really care if you think it is unamerican to criticize the government.


It is not unAmerican to criticize the government...and I have never said any such thing. In fact I have said it is an obligation of American citizenship to do so.

You are way over the edge, Rabel.



Quote:
When I see what I consider wrongdoing I will point it out.


So will I.

Quote:
If you dont like it put me on ignore but dont try to tell me that I cant read and reason as well as the next guy.


Well if this last post of yours is any indication of your ability to read and reason...you may be well over-estimating your abilities in that department, Rabel...because you are way, way off-base here.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 04:19 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

Izzy, you know I never said any of those things. Are you coming around to the point of view of the conservative posters who post lies in an attempt to put down people they disagree with. Well so be it.


Perhaps Izzy is "reading between the lines", Rabel.

Not a good thing to do...and it can be frustrating when people put words into your mouth and then attempt to disagree with you by disagreeing with the words and thoughts they invented...right!


izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 04:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Don't talk rot. Rab stated he was trying to emulate me, my response was to tell him to post something factual. He replied with "you first" or something similar which implied I hadn't posted anything factual. Thus my response. If anyone is putting words in anyone's mouth, it's Rabel by suggesting I was cosying up to the right wing supporters.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 05:02 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Don't talk rot. Rab stated he was trying to emulate me, my response was to tell him to post something factual. He replied with "you first" or something similar which implied I hadn't posted anything factual. Thus my response. If anyone is putting words in anyone's mouth, it's Rabel by suggesting I was cosying up to the right wing supporters.


It was a joke, Izzy. A kind of irony. It was a play on the words Rabel used with me in an earlier post...the one to which I just responded.

(I did not know Rabel was male...I thought Rabel was female.)
blatham
 
  2  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 05:05 am
This is all quite wearying. Why don't we just get together and have a fight with golf clubs and sacks filled with animal feces.

We'll need a ref and as I'm Canadian that would be me.

Related question... has anyone here read Aaron Bady (zunguzungu) on Assange's project?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 05:43 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

This is all quite wearying. Why don't we just get together and have a fight with golf clubs and sacks filled with animal feces.

We'll need a ref and as I'm Canadian that would be me.


Yeah, for a Canadian this discussion might be "quite wearying"...or even funny to watch.

But for the most part, Canadians are not in the forum constantly bad-mouthing Canada...regularly talking about what a disgusting place it has become. Neither are the people from the UK doing that...or from Germany.

Some of those people do come in to congratulate people like ci and Rabel for pissing on the United States at every opportunity...and to applaud them when they heap scorn, contempt, and general hatred on this country.

Nothing wrong with any of that. If people from outside this country think it is a **** heap...so be it. If people who live here and prosper think it to be pond scum...so be it.

And if I think it appropriate to mention to someone who lives here and who regularly and relentlessly talks about it the way some here do...I have the right to suggest they at least consider leaving...and going somewhere else where the atmosphere might be more to their liking.

To have that characterized as "love it or leave it" is abject nonsense, Bernie...especially after lengthy explanations of why I have come to oppose ci's constant degradation of this country.

Be the "ref" if you want. But recognize that the Canadians in this forum who have negative thoughts about government...are much, much, much, much more likely to express negative thoughts about the government of the United States than of their own country. So too with the people from the UK...or from Germany.

Americans like ci and Rabel, on the other hand, delight in heaping negative thoughts about our country out here in public...being ever so happy to agree with those from elsewhere that see the United States as some kind of blight on this planet.

I'll continue to speak out in opposition to much of that crap, Ref.

I guess you will have to rule one way or the other on what I say.
blatham
 
  4  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 06:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
I"m not terribly worried about the fractiousness. Positions were taken, positions hardened. Not all that unusual. The inevitable attack from the spider creatures of Tau Ceti will bind you folks together again.

The US and its policies and behavior in the world gains unusual attention because of its unusual power and dominance in the world. We all get that, I imagine. And, as with Britain or Spain etc earlier, those policies and behaviors are consequential and, importantly, instruments of what is deemed by the US as good for the US. Who cares what the hell Switzerland or New Zealand or Canada gets up to?

I brought up Assange because I think that Snowden is, in part, an instance of the project that Assange set in motion with Wikileaks. It's a project I support if with some trepidation.

If we understand the conservative dynamic as that which seeks to preserve hierarchies of power and dominance in the face of "threats" from below (eg blacks gaining equality, women rising to equality with males, workers' unions gaining power to determine conditions in factories, the lower classes gaining institutional tools and means to have a say in the structure of society, etc) we can understand why those of privilege are so passionate about any such threat from below. Assange's project has the very real potential to bring about something like a modern world French Revolution. Which is why everybody and their dog is after him; governments around the world, corporate entities, even a lot of the media. My trepidation centers on the unknown aspects of what might follow from such a deep upset of existing orders.
blatham
 
  4  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 06:33 am
@blatham,
ps... I ought to add that it is predictable to 100% that those who presently hold power and positions of dominance will pronounce and project the very most dire predictions of what will happen if the present order (within which their privilege is maintained) is upset. They may well even believe what they are saying because it is true for them.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  4  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 06:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank I rarely read your nonsense postings but this one I did and it still amaze me that you or anyone else would think it is patriotic to turn a blind eye when people in power are cheerfully breaking both the spirit and the letter of the constitution.

Or that attacking such assholes are in anyway or in any manner is attacking the country or the ideals that this nation government is base on.

You should have been born a few hundreds years ago in a country where the King and the country was one and the same and to attacked the King was an act of treason that could earn you the death penalty.

Instead of being loyal to a king the oath in the US is to defend and uphold the Constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic and that oath cover defending it against fools [hello frank] who think that we can no longer afford the Bill of Rights due to the "great" danger from terrorism.

Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Wed 13 Aug, 2014 06:52 am
@blatham,
I understand and appreciate what you are saying Bernie, and since you know me, you must realize that in many respect I agree with your position.

It is my opinion that the problems the entire world faces right now require systemic changes of almost cosmic proportions…and I certainly realize that the technological changes happening right now are probably going to be the catalyst for those changes.

(I’m not nuts about Assange…but it more than likely will be entities like Wikileaks that head us in that direction.)

Your comments about the “threats from below” and the “conservative dynamic” to resist (often at appalling, and counterproductive, cost) those perceived threats…are right on the money.

Start a thread on that…and it will go on forever.

Here we were discussing whether Edward Snowden is a dummy…when the sheer weight of the negativity toward the United States expressed by one individual finally got to me…and I decided to express my dissatisfaction in as benign a way as possible: “If you dislike this place as much as you are indicating, you ought really to consider relocation.”

It was not earthshattering in scope…and was both logical and appropriate as a suggestion.

I wish this thread would go back to a general discussion of Edward Snowden…or die out. But if it is going to continue as a pedestal for some people to relentlessly disparage this country…or to paint my remarks as the imbecilic 60's conservative mantra of "Love it or leave it"... I am going to speak up...both in defense of the country...and in defense of what I am actually saying.

I hope you do use the occasion of your remarks to me as the basis for a new thread devoted to those thought, Bernie.

 

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