Snowdon is a dummy

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

And you know this as a legal scholar. LOL

No, I am not a legal scholar...nor have I ever suggested that I am. But I have read the opinions of several legal scholars on the question...and every one has indicated that none of the charges carry a death penalty.

Do you know of any legal scholar who suggest that the death penalty would apply?

Quote:

Quote:
A prosecution will be justified here — Snowden knowingly broke the law. Trying to lock him up for decades may not. If the government is convinced that the leaks had the serious potential to put lives at risk, make that case. If Snowden's worst crime is embarrassing the administration, it would make sense to seek charges that carry enough punishment to induce great caution in those with access to such secrets, but not so much as to terrorize those who would expose serious abuses of power.

It can go either way; I personally don't trust this government who broke the laws in the first place (and tried to hide it); it's conflict of interest.

Frankly, ci, I think you despise this country so much you will always come down on the side of distrust. That is your right in this country.

I am of the opinion that Edward Snowden CAN get a fair trial on the charges against him...and I cannot conceive of the government simply disregarding its obligation to prosecute this thing.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Olivier5, I know where you're going and you're on your own.

In other words, if America wants to lock up people without trial or charge, you Europeans should keep your mouths shut. America can do what it wants.

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@izzythepush,

This isn't the only problem; Obama authorizes torture of prisoners.

What if the government sends Snowden to Gitmo? Who believes the government won't take this action against Snowden?

Quote:

Center for Constitutional Rights

Illegal Detentions and Guantanamo

GTMO representation by Zina Saunder
The government has illegally detained thousands of people, the most notorious example being the men at Guantánamo. The Center for Constitutional Rights has fought for the right to due process, filing countless cases on behalf of these men and others swept up in the so-called War on Terror. CCR has challenged immigration sweeps, ghost detentions, extraordinary rendition, and every other illegal program the government has devised to lock people up and throw away the key. CCR believes we all become less safe and less free when we trample on the rights of others.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Moment-in-Time wrote:
Olivier5, I know where you're going and you're on your own.

In other words, if America wants to lock up people without trial or charge, you Europeans should keep your mouths shut. America can do what it wants.

No, Izzy. The Gitmo prisoners were brought up in a discussion about Edward Snowden. A bizarre attempted tie-in.

It was a sidetrack...a diversion from the fact that Edward Snowden has been charged with very specific crimes...and he is not destined for Gitmo. If he can be brought back to the United States (or if he returns voluntarily)...he WILL receive a fair trial.

The fact that so many of you are willing to trash the US and its institutions the way you seem to be reveling in doing...is something disgusting in my mind. We've been good friends and staunch allies of some of the countries hopping on this bandwagon. That Americans are joining with you non-Americans in this frenzy of vilification...is beyond imagination.

People like ci ought to hang their heads in shame...and grow the spine necessary to leave the country if it seems as ethically polluted as apparently it does to him.

But if this kind of stuff you all need to feel good about yourself...go for it. We'll still come to your aid, as we have in the past, if the need ever arises again.

1 Reply

@blatham,

That is unamerican as hell. Good for you!!!

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

That is unamerican as hell. Good for you!!!

People like ci ought to hang their heads in shame...and grow the spine necessary to leave the country if it seems as ethically polluted as apparently it does to him.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

Moment-in-Time wrote:
Olivier5, I know where you're going and you're on your own.

Quote:

izzythepush wrote:
In other words, if America wants to lock up people without trial or charge, you Europeans should keep your mouths shut. America can do what it wants.

I was referring to Oliver5's style of debating which I remember well from a previous board. What are YOU talking about?! We live in a global community.....I learned about the 9/11 tragedy from someone in Europe on the same morning before I had even accessed my computer. I get first class information from the Guardian and if I had to pay to read it I would gladly subscribe so much has it become a part of my daily life. I read Haaretz (Middle East/Israeli paper), and any nation where the article is printed in English or I use my tranlator.Why do you, izzythepush, continue to twist things?

GITMO is a tragedy. President Obama wanted desperately to close it but a divided/partisan congress refuse to let him do that nor would they allow some prisoners to be jailed here in the US. Likewise, Abu Ghraib was a stain on America. Where on earth did you come up with my wanting censorship of European countries? You, izzythepush, hold such a cynical views.

1 Reply

@RABEL222,

I also agree with blatham. We should be open about the crimes of our country against its own people.

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@RABEL222,

Quote:

That is unamerican as hell. Good for you!!!

Being Canadian, it's a lot easier.

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@Frank Apisa,

And people like you should hang their head in shame for trying to shut up people who have the guts to criticize bad government when they are subjected to it. If more people criticized their governments we might all have better lives. Pay attention Izzy and Oliver, before you condemn the government of the U S of A maybe you should try to cure the sins of your own governments.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

People like ci ought to hang their heads in shame...and grow the spine necessary to leave the country if it seems as ethically polluted as apparently it does to him.

Nah, frank. Such criticism is a dutiful thing, not a traitorous thing. You're well aware of the seriously bad stuff the CIA has gotten up to in the past. You know what Nixon's crowd got up to. You know the Cheney cabal's sins. You know there are people like these who seek power or arrive in power and proceed to lie through their teeth to citizens. You know informed democracy is thwarted by such people and such acts. You know that the only means of combating such is close attention by citizens and by media and the courage to push back against the abuses of power.

1 Reply

@RABEL222,

Quote:

If more people criticized their governments we might all have better lives.

I am my country (US) harshest critic! I am also the US's fiercest defender. You are so correct, Rabel, we should stop "criticizing the log in another's eye until we've removed same from our own."

Quote:

Pay attention Izzy and Oliver, before you condemn the government of the U S of A maybe you should try to cure the sins of your own governments.

All countries spy. It is said by experts (60 Minutes Program) that our State Department is riddled with Israeli spies. Spying on the US including Israel, are Russia, France, Germany, etc. Countries spying on each other has been going on since it was discovered how to do so. Espionage is a French word and means: 1. the act or practice of spying.2. the use of spies by a government to discover the military and political secrets of other nations.

Good post, Rabel.

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@Moment-in-Time,

The history of spying doesn't make it right, if one understands the word 'trust.'

Why must you spy on your wife/husband if you trust her/him? Because they may cheat on you? Forget trust, and what do you have? Nothing.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Actually, espionage is of (Old High) German origin: spehōn (= to peer, to spy) Wink

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Actually, espionage is of (Old High) German origin: spehōn (= to peer, to spy)

Hi, Walter. My dictionary tells me it's French first but see below, but it also mentions German spähen etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/espionage?s=t

French espionnage, Middle French espionage, equivalent to espionn ( er ) to spy (derivative of espion spy < Italian spione < Germanic; akin to German spähen to look out) + -age -age
of espion spy < Italian spione < Germanic; akin to German spähen to look out) + -age -age

1 Reply

@Moment-in-Time,

Quote:

Old Saxon: *spehōn
Middle Low German: spēgen, spējen, spēen, spēn
Old Norse: speja, spæja
Icelandic: speja, spæja
Norwegian: speide
Swedish: speja
Danish: speide
Old Frankish: *spehōn
Old Dutch: *spehōn
Middle Dutch: spien, spieden
Dutch: spieden, bespieden
Old French: espier
Middle French: espier
French: épier
Middle English: aspien, espier, spien
Scots: aspy, espy, spy
English: aspy, espy, spy
Italian: spiare
Old High German: spehōn
Middle High German: spëhen
German: spähen

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@Walter Hinteler,

According to the most prominent German dictionary (Grimm) 'spionage' re-entered the German language from the French soldier's language ("espion") in the 17th century.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

According to the most prominent German dictionary (Grimm) 'spionage' re-entered the German language from the French soldier's language ("espion") in the 17th century.

Alright, Walter, I stand corrected. Thank you. My original message hasn't changed in that the word "espionage" was derived from another country which was involved with spying and that spying on other countries did not begin with NSA....it's just that countries have gotten better at it.

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@Frank Apisa,

Gitmo is not a "bizarre attempted tie in," it's a fact about American justice, torture and detention without trial, all very recent if not currently happening.

When your government started to do all that, it trashed the US's good name. You just don't think we should be allowed to have an opinion about that.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Scratch an liberal American like you and there's an imperialist just under the surface. Don't you ever get tired of telling us citizens of lesser nations what to do? I know you think you think you know what's best for us, that we should thank you for spying on us, and for bullying our governments into denying Snowden asylum. How dare any of us mention Guantanamo Bay when you're lecturing us about the wonders of American jurisprudence, (which btw, only seems so wonderful to you because you've got nothing to compare it to, those of us that have aren't quite so doughy eyed.)

For an academic you've got a very monochromatic view of the world, it's all or nothing with you and Frank. If you criticise any part of the American government you hate all over America, and its people, even American's like CI! However you want to paint it, CI doesn't appear remotely self loathing just someone who thinks his country could do better. You may think America is perfect and beyond reproach, but thank **** for people like CI who haven't swallowed all that Martha Stewart highly saccharined bullshit.

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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