Snowdon is a dummy

@Frank Apisa,

I do not believe that for a second. Obama would have come up with some way, of not saying the truth, but he wouldn't have left himself wide open to being found out in such a lie as to straight out say they was not spying on Merkel anymore if they were in fact still spying on her and he knew it.

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@cicerone imposter,

I'm sorry, could you clarify? Spy on who first before what? Do you mean spy on family and friends first before I trusted them again after having committed the first offense? No, I would take them at their word unless they give me to reason to think they are still committing the offense they said they were not going to do anymore. (You know, forgiving someone seventy times seventy times or something like that)

However, we are not dealing with family and friends, but countries and I can understand Germany wanting something more concrete than our word.

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@revelette2,

Spy on your family and friends, because there's a perceived potential that they may harm you!

Why the need to spy on our friends, our allies? Trust begets trust; distrust begets distrust.

Why would you need to spy on your family and friends? There's no good reason to do so, because they are family and friends who we support through thick and thin.

The possibility that they will become our enemy is zero until such time they prove by their actions they can't be trusted.

Spying on family is not acceptable if you trust them. If not, you have a problem with trust.

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Yeah, Revelette...Germany, for instance, should not spy on us. They should trust us. They should trust us implicitly, because we are good friends and allies.

Oh, wait a second. They did...or at least they say they did.

Hummm...how did that work out?

There is no cure for naive...when it defended in the face of being realistic!

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I do believe you two have hard time comprehending what I posts, so the fault must lie with me.

CI, I agree, we shouldn't spy on friends or family. I tried to say that, must have not been clear.

Frank, I doubt Germany trust us, which is why they asked for some kind of agreement. We didn't want to sign that agreement, so now their counter spy agency is going to spy on us to find out if we are spying on them. What a world.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

I do believe you two have hard time comprehending what I posts, so the fault must lie with me.

CI, I agree, we shouldn't spy on friends or family. I tried to say that, must have not been clear.

Frank, I doubt Germany trust us, which is why they asked for some kind of agreement. We didn't want to sign that agreement, so now their counter spy agency is going to spy on us to find out if we are spying on them. What a world.

It is a complicated and often perplexing world, Revelette.

But a part of my point here...A LARGE PART...is that if we do not treat the spying among friends as a game ender...and treat it for what it actually is...

...the kind of thing that every nation has been doing throughout history...

...it becomes a kind of benign game.

The spooks have to engage other spooks...or they'd all be out of business.

My guess is that the Germans (including Merkel) are more bothered by the fact that spying has been revealed to the world...than by the spying itself.

We are friends...we are allies. For the most part we are not going to find out that either of us has been stabbing the other in the back.

It is a game...so that people like Ludlum, le Carre, Clancy, Forsythe, Follett and Fleming can make a living.

Don't take it as seriously as some here are doing. Consider it, if you will, an international form of the American "checks and balances."

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Non free government such as the US currently and Russia just hate such tools/software as Tor.

Quote:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/07/russia_paying_f.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Russia Paying for a Tor Break
Russia has put out a tender on its official government procurement website for anyone who can identify Tor users. The reward of $114,000 seems pretty cheap for this capability. And we now get to debate whether 1) Russia cannot currently deaonymize Tor users, or 2) Russia can, and this is a ruse to make us think they can't.

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Is this really a good advice, German media ask this morning, when they published the following.
The German Federal Justice Minister Heiko Maas (SPD) advises the former NSA employee Edward Snowden to return to the USA.
"He's only just in the beginning of his 30's and certainly doesn't want to be hunted around the world for the rest of his life or searching asylum for all his life," Maas told the news agency dpa in Berlin. "As you can hear, the lawyers of Mr. Snowden are in negotiations with U.S. authorities if he may return to the U.S.A. to face a trial," the minister said. If both sides could get an agreement, it would be the best for Snowden to return. "Otherwise he'll always be on the run from U.S. law enforcement agencies," Maas said.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Is this really a good advice, German media ask this morning, when they published the following.
The German Federal Justice Minister Heiko Maas (SPD) advises the former NSA employee Edward Snowden to return to the USA.
"He's only just in the beginning of his 30's and certainly doesn't want to be hunted around the world for the rest of his life or searching asylum for all his life," Maas told the news agency dpa in Berlin. "As you can hear, the lawyers of Mr. Snowden are in negotiations with U.S. authorities if he may return to the U.S.A. to face a trial," the minister said. If both sides could get an agreement, it would be the best for Snowden to return. "Otherwise he'll always be on the run from U.S. law enforcement agencies," Maas said.

I also think this is "really good advice", Walter.

I think he can get a "fair trial"...one in fact that may well be slanted in his direction. He will undoubtedly be able to amass a "dream team" of lawyers to defend him.

But he is going to have to be tried on the charges now pending...and use the defenses now available.

If his defense team decides that the US government is being unfair by refusing to allow defenses that simply are not available under current law...then they are being absurd. A bank robber cannot invoke the "Robin Hood Defense" by saying that it is only fair that such a defense be taken into consideration. The defense WILL be able to ask for consideration of various defenses...and a trial judge will rule on whether or not they apply...with an appeals process to determine the propriety of whatever decision is made.

Snowden, as I have said several times in this thread, is not in my opinion a "dummy", but he did not think out the ramifications of some of his actions thoroughly before acting.

A life on the run sucks...and I hope he heeds this advice...which many people are suggesting.

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@Walter Hinteler,

A life on the run has obvious advantages as compared to a life in prison... Nevertheless, if he can be absolutely certain that the trial will be public, that he can bring certain evidence to the fore, etc., then the idea of fighting the monster head-on could be tempting.

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@Olivier5,

I doubt anyone can trust the US; they are the very country that supports Israel while they continue to steal land and kill innocent people without fear of reprisal from the US. I don't trust our government; not for a moment.

They are unethical criminals in my eyes. This is a subject about trust; they've lost it a long time ago.

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Sounds to me that ci ought to do what Olivier may have done...leave the US for somewhere else.

ci hates America...and should be man enough to just leave. (Not that I am accusing him of being man enough!)

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@Frank Apisa,

I do think that you're close to the same very narrow-minded line of thoughts that e.g. Islamophobics, Anti-Semitics, Neo-Nazis, other "ultras" etc etc use: those, who don't follow my ideas must hate ... the country, the government, ... ...

I do think that such is dangerous. At least for anyone outside your "circle".

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I do think that you're close to the same very narrow-minded line of thoughts that e.g. Islamophobics, Anti-Semitics, Neo-Nazis, other "ultras" etc etc use: those, who don't follow my ideas must hate ... the country, the government, ... ...

I do think that such is dangerous. At least for anyone outside your "circle".

Thank you for sharing what you think, Walter.

It should come as no surprise that I disagree with you.

ci talks about this country as though it were a disease.

He should be man enough to simply leave it. He certainly is not doing anything to make it better...and it is my opinion that his leaving might accomplish that.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I think it is good advice, but it's no big surprise that I do. What do you think?

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@Frank Apisa,

Apparently he has travelled the world, so, he must have the means to live elsewhere if he chooses to. I think he just has a habit of seeing issues all one way, all the way, if that makes sense. Some people tend to do that.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

I think it is good advice, but it's no big surprise that I do. What do you think?

Excellent question, Revelette. I misread Walter's opening sentence to read that he considers it good advice. I was surprised that he did...but the fact is that anyone...even people who are fervent supporters of Snowden should be able to see the value of the advice.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

Apparently he has travelled the world, so, he must have the means to live elsewhere if he chooses to. I think he just has a habit of seeing issues all one way, all the way, if that makes sense. Some people tend to do that.

I'm guilty of that kind of thinking at times myself, Revelette. But ci has gone way over the line in his comments about this country...although he carefully cloaks it as commentary about "the government." I suppose that makes a difference for him.

But if I loathed the country as much as he...I most assuredly would leave. It is like loathing a particular television program, but making that program must-view. As I see it, sticking here makes no sense for people who feel as he does.

He even proudly proclaims that he will not vote...in an attempt to change things...and announces as gospel that it makes no difference who is in charge...things will still be diseased as far as he is concerned.

To him, I say: Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!

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@Frank Apisa,

You kind of got a point, but never mind, I guess this is between ya'll.

Anyway, they have a new senate bill which proposes some more curbs to NSA, the WH supports it. It went a little further than the house bill.

U.S. Senate bill proposes sweeping curbs on NSA surveillance

Perhaps this will be encouraging for NSA critics?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

xcellent question, Revelette. I misread Walter's opening sentence to read that he considers it good advice. I was surprised that he did...but the fact is that anyone...even people who are fervent supporters of Snowden should be able to see the value of the advice.

I wrote:

Is this really a good advice, German media ask this morning, when they published the following.

If that is so easily ti misunderstand - how should it be phrased in proper English (or American English)? I wanted to say that this morning various media published that dpa-report, all (five at the moment I posted it) asked "Is this really a good advice?" (Or slightly differently worded.)

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Snowdon is a dummy

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