42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 14 Jun, 2014 04:34 am
Edward Snowden is not a dummy, but that does not mean he should be denied a fair trial in an attempt to clear his name.

He should come back to the US...and stand trial on the charges that he stole classified government documents and gave them to people who were unauthorized to receive them.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 14 Jun, 2014 05:57 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Isn't Wotan and Odin the same figure, just written in different languages?
"We" called him Wōdan, the people some miles north of us had Odin.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 14 Jun, 2014 06:00 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
It'd be nice if that differing opinion didn't include treating us as if we were the bad guys.
I just treat those as bad who are bad guys in my opinion. And I never do it generalised for a group or even a nation.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Sun 15 Jun, 2014 05:32 am
@cicerone imposter,
U.S. officials scrambled to nab Snowden, hoping he would take a wrong step. He didn’t.

Meeting nearly daily, U.S. officials had hoped former NSA contractor Edward Snowden would slip up. He didn’t. (Vincent Kessler/Reuters)
BY GREG MILLER June 14 at 10:38 PM

While Edward Snowden was trapped in the transit zone of Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport last year, U.S. officials were confronting their own dearth of options in the White House Situation Room.

For weeks, senior officials from the FBI, the CIA, the State Department and other agencies assembled nearly every day in a desperate search for a way to apprehend the former intelligence contractor who had exposed the inner workings of American espionage then fled to Hong Kong before ending up in Moscow.

Convened by White House homeland security adviser Lisa Monaco, the meetings kept ending at the same impasse: Have everyone make yet another round of appeals to their Russian counterparts and hope that Snowden makes a misstep.

“The best play for us is him landing in a third country,” Monaco said, according to an official who met with her at the White House. The official, who like other current and former officials interviewed for this article discussed internal deliberations on the condition of anonymity, added, “We were hoping he was going to be stupid enough to get on some kind of airplane, and then have an ally say: ‘You’re in our airspace. Land.’ ”

U.S. officials thought they saw such an opening on July 2 when Bolivian President Evo Morales, who expressed support for Snowden, left Moscow aboard his presidential aircraft. The decision to divert that plane ended in embarrassment when it was searched in Vienna and Snowden was not aboard.

A year later, Snowden appears to have moved further beyond U.S. reach. His expiring asylum status in Russia is expected to be extended this summer. Negotiations between his attorneys and the Justice Department about a possible deal to secure his return have been dormant for months.

U.S. officials offer conflicting accounts of how much they know about Snowden’s situation in Russia.

“It’s an ongoing investigation,” U.S. Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said in an interview. “We have done the appropriate things at this stage of the investigation, and we know exactly where Mr. Snowden is.”

Others said the United States lacks answers to even basic questions about Snowden’s circumstances, including where he lives and — perhaps most important — the role of the Russian security service, the FSB, in his day-to-day life.

Asked whether the United States knows Snowden’s location, a U.S. official regularly briefed on the matter said, “That’s not our understanding.”

The gaps persist despite Snowden’s ability to meet with U.S. journalists in Moscow and make high-profile appearances, including during a call-in show with Russian President Vladi­mir Putin.

Michael McFaul, who served as U.S. ambassador to Russia until February, said he never had detailed information on the American fugitive’s whereabouts. “I do not know where Mr. Snowden is living, what his relationship to the Russian government is or how he makes a living,” said McFaul, who has returned to the faculty at Stanford University.

Several U.S. officials cited a complication to gathering intelligence on Snowden that could be seen as ironic: the fact that there has been no determination that he is an “agent of a foreign power,” a legal distinction required to make an American citizen a target of espionage overseas.

If true, it means that the former CIA employee and National Security Agency contractor, who leaked thousands of classified files to expose what he considered rampant and illegal surveillance of U.S. citizens, is shielded at least to some extent from spying by his former employers.

Snowden is facing espionage-related charges, and the FBI has power to conduct wiretaps and enlist the NSA and CIA in its investigative efforts overseas. But even with such help, officials said, the bureau’s reach in Moscow is limited.

“The FBI doesn’t have any capability to operate in Moscow without the collaboration of the FSB,” said a former senior U.S. intelligence official who served in the Russian capital.

The lack of a warrant deeming Snowden a foreign agent would also cast doubt on the claims of some of his critics. U.S. officials, including Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, have speculated that Snowden had Russian help in stealing U.S. secrets and probably works with the FSB now.

Snowden has acknowledged that he was approached by Russian intelligence upon his arrival, but he has said he rejected the pitch and did not bring any classified files with him. He insisted in a recent NBC television interview that he has “no relationship” with the Russian government.

Snowden attorney Ben Wizner, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union who corresponded with his client for this article, said Snowden gets no financial support from the Russian government and does not need it.

Beyond savings from his six-figure NSA jobs, Snowden has received tens of thousands of dollars in cash awards and appearance fees from privacy organizations and other groups over the past year, Wizner said. An organization called the Courage Foundation launched a Web site to raise money for Snowden’s legal defense and listed contributions of $1,356 as of Saturday afternoon.

The apparent stability of Snowden’s situation contrasts with the uncertainty of the eight-week stretch last summer after he had publicly identified himself as the source of a trove of NSA documents but before he secured asylum in Russia — a critical but now closed window in U.S. efforts to catch him.

The burst of activity during that period — including the White House meetings, a broad diplomatic scramble and the decision to force a foreign leader’s plane to land — was far more extensive than U.S. officials acknowledged at the time.

President Obama in particular seemed to strike a dismissive pose, saying on June 27 that he was “not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker.” Caitlin Hayden, a spokeswoman for the National Security Council, said Obama’s remark referred only to the prospect of using military assets. “The president made clear he wouldn’t,” Hayden said in recent statement the The Washington Post. “Not because we weren’t working hard to get Snowden back to the U.S.,” but because it was a law enforcement matter.

From the outset, the pursuit of Snowden was led by the FBI. Lon Snowden, the fugitive’s father, said FBI agents descended on his house within hours after a video of his son identifying himself as the source of the NSA leaks appeared on the Web site of the British news outlet the Guardian.

“I spoke to them approximately four hours on the 10th of June,” Lon Snowden said. Later, the FBI offered to send the elder Snowden to Moscow as part of an effort to deliver a scripted pitch to his son to turn himself in and return home. A former officer in the Coast Guard, Lon Snowden was initially cooperative with the bureau but became angered as his son was depicted by U.S. officials as a traitor.

“I came to know that they were not functioning in good faith” and turned down the trip, Snowden said.

By then, Monaco was convening meetings nearly every day at the White House. Among the participants were the CIA’s head of counterintelligence, FBI Deputy Director Sean Joyce and McFaul, who often took part by videoconference in sessions that got underway well after midnight in Moscow.

The meetings “were not just about Edward Snowden the fugitive” and covered subjects including assessments of the damage the leaks had caused, Joyce said. But there was a constant search for ideas to recover him. “There were several things that were sort of ongoing,” Joyce said, declining to be more specific. “None of them actually panned out.”

Many of the meetings were followed by a stream of calls from U.S. officials to Moscow. Then-FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III made more than half a dozen direct appeals to his FSB counterpart, Alexander Bortnikov, officials said, all for naught.

U.S. officials said the aim was to convince Putin that turning over Snowden would bolster the U.S.-Russia relationship at a trivial cost to Moscow. But even those making the appeals regarded them as long shots.


“Key players in this were very pessimistic,” said a former U.S. intelligence official involved in the discussions. “The FBI and CIA would have put the chances of cutting some deal with the Russians to send him home at close to zero. This was just too juicy for Putin.”

Against those odds, the Obama administration focused on the prospect that Snowden — who had cited interest in finding asylum in Iceland or Latin America — would abandon his Moscow perch.

State Department and CIA officials pressured countries seen as potential destinations to turn Snowden away, reducing his options to a handful hostile toward the United States. Among them was Bolivia, whose president had signaled publicly that he would consider giving Snowden asylum.

“Why not?” Morales said during a July visit to Moscow. “Bolivia is there to welcome personalities who denounce — I don’t know if it’s espionage or control.”

In interviews, U.S. officials acknowledged that they had no specific intelligence that Snowden would be on Morales’s plane. But the Bolivian leader’s remark was enough to set in motion a plan to enlist France, Spain, Italy and Portugal to block the Bolivian president’s flight home.

“The United States did not request that any country force down President Morales’s plane,” said Hayden, the National Security Council spokeswoman. “What we did do . . . was communicate via diplomatic and law enforcement channels with countries through which Mr. Snowden might transit.”

Another U.S. official described the effort as a “full-court press” involving CIA station chiefs in Europe.


As it crossed Austria, the aircraft made a sudden U-turn and landed in Vienna, where authorities searched the cabin — with Morales’s permission, officials said — but saw no sign of Snowden.

The initial, official explanation that Morales was merely making a refueling stop quickly yielded to recriminations and embarrassment.

Austrian officials said they were skeptical of the plan from the outset and noted that Morales’s plane had taken off from a different airport in Moscow than where Snowden was held. “Unless the Russians had carted him across the city,” one official said, it was unlikely he was on board.

Even if Snowden had been a passenger, officials said, it is unclear how he could have been removed from a Bolivian air force jet whose cabin would ordinarily be regarded as that country’s sovereign domain — especially in Austria, a country that considers itself diplomatically neutral.

“We would have looked foolish if Snowden had been on that plane sitting there grinning,” said a senior Austrian official. “There would have been nothing we could have done.”

Diverting Morales’s plane was more than a diplomatic setback. It also probably caused Snowden to abandon any idea of leaving Russia, squandering what Monaco had described as “the best play” for the United States.

A year after his arrival in Moscow, Snowden is seeking ways to find normalcy. Wizner, his attorney, said Snowden is considering taking a position with a South African foundation that would support work on security and privacy issues.

Snowden has also fielded inquiries about book and movie projects.

“Any moment that he decides that he wants to be a wealthy person, that route is available to him,” Wizner said, although the U.S. government could also attempt to seize such proceeds.

Wizner declined to discuss where Snowden lives, or how he secured an apartment in a city where such transactions require government involvement — except to indicate that Snowden’s Russian attorney, Anatoly Kucherena, has helped with such arrangements.

Snowden’s relationship with Kucherena, who has close ties to Putin and serves on an FSB advisory board, has fueled speculation that he is working with the Russian government.

McFaul, the former ambassador, raised other questions, including how Snowden has managed to arrange interviews with prominent U.S. journalists — all requiring Russian visas that could not be obtained without FSB approval — but has yet to grant such access any Russian reporters.

“Many Russian journalists are eager to interview him and ask these questions, but so far he has refused,” McFaul said.

Snowden’s critics and supporters do occupy a thin strand of common ground. They agree that Snowden is probably under nearly constant scrutiny by the FSB and lives a life that is constrained by his dependence on the government that granted him asylum.

“When Snowden says that he has ‘no relationship’ with the Russian government, he means that he hasn’t cooperated with their intelligence services in any way and that his asylum isn’t conditioned on cooperation,” Wizner said. “Of course, the Russian government could choose to expel him at any time.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-officials-scrambling-to-nab-snowden-hoped-he-would-take-a-wrong-step-he-didnt/2014/06/14/057a1ed2-f1ae-11e3-bf76-447a5df6411f_story.html

Sari Horwitz, Ellen Nakashima and Julie Tate contributed to this article.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 15 Jun, 2014 05:51 am
More than 200 NSA-agents spy legally in and from Germany as diplotats (according to the six pages of Memorandum of Agreement (MoA) from April 2002 and the 76 top secret pages of the annex to it.)
The more than 40 'terrorists' were discovered from the NSA-dependences in Germany until 2005, and killed due to these informations. (Source: Snowden documents via Spiegel, reports in other German media)
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Sun 15 Jun, 2014 01:27 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Somebody in goverment released all this confidential information to the press. Why isent the FBI trying to throw someones ass in jail for doing what Snowden did. I dont agree that Snowden did the right thing but fair is fair. If what he did is illegal than so was what the confidential informant did.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Sun 15 Jun, 2014 02:33 pm
@RABEL222,
Rabel222 wrote:
Somebody in goverment released all this confidential information to the press. Why isn't the FBI trying to throw someones ass in jail for doing what Snowden did. I do not agree that Snowden did the right thing but fair is fair. If what he did is illegal than so was what the confidential informant did.[\quote]

This article merely covers the Snowden process, Rabel. We all read in the papers how Edward Snowden was trapped in the transit zone of Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport last year, and how the Bolivian President Evo Morales, who expressed support for Snowden, plane was diverted, ending in embarrassment when it was searched in Vienna and Snowden was not aboard.

We also know the average Russian citizen cannot just randomly call in and question Putin, the president of Russia; therefore, it is believed Russian security is helping him in some manner, and this ignites questions. Russian society, (I'm no expert) even though it professes to be a democracy since the fall of the Soviet Union, is more of a repressive state. Snowden's attorney serves on the board of FSB i.e. the Russian Federal Bureau. Everything this article is writing about is already in the public domain but is thoroughly and comprehensively reported in this article. These are journalists doing an incredible job of research and followup.

We read in-depth articles all the time in the Times, Washingtonpost, Guardian, Haaretz, etc. These people keep us informed and are not releasing classified governmental secrets. There is no earthly reason why these journalists should be in jail for doing an excellent job of reporting.

Perhaps I am not understanding your question, Rabel and you're referring to something else. If so, I apologize and ask you to enlighten me.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sun 15 Jun, 2014 02:39 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Perhaps I am not understanding your question, Rabel and you're referring to something else. If so, I apologize and ask you to enlighten me.
I, too, thought that it just was an article when I read it first two days ago - a good journalistic work and research.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Sun 15 Jun, 2014 02:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:

I, too, thought that it just was an article when I read it first two days ago - a good journalistic work and research.


Thank you for your positive response, Walter. For a moment I thought I'd made another gaffe,
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Sun 15 Jun, 2014 09:23 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
If I read that article right someone in the U S of A government released this information to the news services. When Snowden did this he was brended a law breaker. Tell me why one is wrong and the other right. Some unnamed source is always realesing government secrets so why dont the FBI go after them.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 11:14 am
@RABEL222,
Because that would mean going after powerful people...

Note that the NYT itself helped Snowden publish his material, and helped wikileaks before... And yet, nobody is making noise about them... Why? Could it be that the New York Times can make or break political careers?
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 02:55 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Note that the NYT itself helped Snowden publish his material, and helped wikileaks before... And yet, nobody is making noise about them... Why? Could it be that the New York Times can make or break political careers?

It's not a crime for a journalist to report a story. The crime is when people leak vital classified information.

The New York Times is likely to get its share of noise though. The government is demanding that they reveal the people who leaked to them. It is possible that reporters will start being held in jail until they divulge all the names.
BillRM
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 03:20 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
It's not a crime for a journalist to report a story.


It is indeed a crime on the law books to publish secret documents it just that the administration does not have enough balls all together to charge either the reporters or the editors of the New York Time under the Espionage Act .
RABEL222
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 04:00 pm
@BillRM,
You forgot Fax news.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 05:47 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:

If I read that article right someone in the U S of A government released this information to the news services. When Snowden did this he was branded a lawbreaker. Tell me why one is wrong and the other right. Some unnamed source is always releasing government secrets so why don't the FBI go after them.


Happy Monday evening, Rabel. Snowden was in a position of trust working as contractor for the NSA and he broke that code by stealing troves of classified documents. He is charged with espionage and stealing governmental property.....the Journalists, on the other hand, were the recipients of this bounty of highly classified NSA documents......not the thieves.

BTW, are you referring to the journalist, Glenn Greenwald, formerly of the Guardian and Laura Poitras, a second journalist who participated in exposing these stolen documents to the world!? Many journalists would rather go to jail before exposing their source. There is such a thing as a free press....these reporters check with their editors first to make sure there is nothing too damaging to the government, and then they post. There are most likely to be many more Snowden stolen revelations in time. To these newspaper people, chosen to publish the Snowden stolen classified documents, it was too much of an opportunity to ignore. Snowden did the criminal deed and will have to pay the price, but passing them on to journalists who are always on the alert for juicy leaks is no reason for the government to apply pressure to them.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 09:54 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Not Snowden. The people I am refering to are the people who wont be named because they are not supposed to release the secret information that they have just released to this news organization or that news organization. If Snowdon broke the law than those people who are high in government who release information are also breaking the law. If I was on the jury trying Snowdon I would release him in a minute unless they also tried all the top government officials who also release secret information for their private benefit.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 02:27 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:

Not Snowden. The people I am refering to are the people who wont be named because they are not supposed to release the secret information that they have just released to this news organization or that news organization.


Hiya, Rabel222. Happy Tuesday afternoon to you.

Snowden passed his collection of NSA classified documents onto Glenn Greenwald and separately, later, to Laura Poitras, the latter working on a documentary regarding surveillance. As you're aware, Greenwald released some of these documents to the media by his reporting on these highly secretive NSA documents. There was heated controversy among some congressional members as to whether Greenwald should be charged as being complicit in the disseminating of these classified documents,(See Congressman Peter King, NY) but as you can see he is still free, and in fact, doing quite well. Other Journalists have reported on these stolen documents from the National Security Agency by Edward Snowden, and "have been repeatedly threatened by a wide range of government officials." When Greenwald arrived in the US recently to accept a journalist award, he came armed with a legion of lawyers in case he was prevented from returning to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. At times, the intimidation campaign has gone beyond mere threats......His long time live-in partner, David Michael, was stopped by officials while en-route to Brazil after visiting Laura Poitras and held for several hours before being released. Greenwald resigned from the Guardian, not from pressure, but because he is going into private business with another man of exceptional means who has 8 billion dollars.

Quote:
If Snowdon broke the law than those people who are high in government who release information are also breaking the law.


I have no quarrel with that. Yet, I have not heard of anyone *recently* (with the exception of those mentioned in my post....journalists) who're involved with releasing NSA classified documents. The recipients of the Edward Snowden's documents are journalists and reporting is what they do. If the US government has something definitive by which to arrest these journalists, trust me, they would be in prison right now. Edward Snowden is the one who spread the classified documents and as you can see, he is under asylum in Russia and will constantly have to look over his shoulder until the situation is resolved with the US.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 11:32 pm
Finally, I had time to read this week's 'Spiegel', the print edition.
NSA has turned Germany into its most important base of operations in Europe, according to the story published there.

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zpsdbb98b8f.jpg

"No other country in Europe plays host to a secret NSA surveillance architecture like the one in Germany … ... ...In 2007, the NSA claimed to have at least a dozen active collection sites in Germany."

Additionally, the NSA’s Special Collection Service, which is a joint operation with the CIA, has stations in the U.S. consulate in Frankfurt, and the U.S. embassy in Berlin, which is where the SCS have recorded Chancellor Merkel’s phone calls.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 06:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
European court to rule on allegations Facebook passes personal data to NSA
Quote:
A European court has been asked to rule on a landmark case which seeks to force watchdogs to audit the personal data Facebook allegedly releases to US spy chiefs.

The high court in Dublin has referred to Strasbourg a challenge by an Austrian privacy campaigner on the back of the Prism surveillance operation exposed by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

Max Schrems's initial attempt to have the social media giant audited over data that its Irish arm allegedly passes on to the US National Security Agency (NSA) was dismissed last year by Ireland's Data Protection Commission.

On Wednesday, Judge Desmond Hogan ordered the privacy challenge – taken in the Irish courts by Schrems's EuropeVFacebook campaign – be referred to the European court of justice.

The judge said evidence suggests that personal data is routinely accessed on a "mass and undifferentiated basis" by the US security authorities.

He said Facebook users should have their privacy respected under the Irish constitution.

"For such interception of communications to be constitutionally valid, it would, accordingly, be necessary to demonstrate that this interception and surveillance of individuals or groups of individuals was objectively justified in the interests of the suppression of crime and national security and, further, that any such interception was attended by the appropriate and verifiable safeguards," the judge said.

Judge Hogan adjourned the case in the Irish courts while European judges look at two questions.

He is asking Strasbourg to examine whether Ireland's data watchdog is bound by what is known as Safe Harbour – a European commission decision from 2000 that US data protection rules are adequate if information is passed by companies to its security agencies on a "self-certify" basis.

Judge Hogan is also asking whether an investigation can be launched in Ireland in light of the Snowden revelations that internet data and communications were being intercepted by the NSA on a global scale.

Examining the background to Schrems's challenge, Judge Hogan said only the naive or credulous could have been surprised by the Snowden expose.

"Only the foolish would deny that the US has, by virtue of its superpower status, either assumed – or, if you prefer, has had cast upon it – far-reaching global security responsibilities," he said.

"It is probably the only world power with a global reach which can effectively monitor the activities of rogue states, advanced terrorist groups and major organised crime, even if the support of allied states such as the UK is also of great assistance.

"The monitoring of global communications – subject, of course, to key safeguards – is accordingly regarded essential if the US is to discharge the mandate which it has assumed.

"These surveillance programmes have undoubtedly saved many lives and have helped to ensure a high level of security, both throughout the western world and elsewhere.

"But there may also be suspicion in some quarters that this type of surveillance has had collateral objects and effects, including the preservation and reinforcing of American global political and economic power."

The case will be mentioned in the high court in two weeks before the issue is sent to the European court.

Schrems is understood to be in Vienna examining the ruling.
revelette2
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 07:39 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Whether Snowden planned it or not, it seems he couldn't have picked a better country to hide in plain sight from the US than Russia. Tweaking the nose of the US is right up Putin's alley and with the way it seems they have it set up with their FSB, it would just make it impossible for the US to track him and arrest him unless Putin gives the FBI permission, which he wouldn't do. Snowden was probably aware of all that. China I don't think would do anything like that so openly, but Putin would.


Quote:
Diverting Morales’s plane was more than a diplomatic setback. It also probably caused Snowden to abandon any idea of leaving Russia, squandering what Monaco had described as “the best play” for the United States.


If Austria couldn't get Snowden off the plane, wonder why the US risked playing their hand to no purpose?
 

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