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Snowdon is a dummy

Forums: Politics, Snowden, Asylum, Nsa, Snowdon
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Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 2 May, 2014 02:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Whatever draws listeners.
Not really. You might have missed or forgotten, Frank, that we here in Germany had had Hitler's regime with the spying and the GDR with the STASI, doing the same.

We are quite a bit more sensitive with our our privacy now, since the allies, mainly the USA, gave us back democracy and taught us, to watch human rights and defend it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 2 May, 2014 02:46 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Whatever draws listeners.
Not really. You might have missed or forgotten, Frank, that we here in Germany had had Hitler's regime with the spying and the GDR with the STASI, doing the same.

We are quite a bit more sensitive with our our privacy now, since the allies, mainly the USA, gave us back democracy and taught us, to watch human rights and defend it.


Well...then pass a few more laws against spying on you. You might even consider passing laws specifically forbidding America from spying on you.

That should solve the problem.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Fri 2 May, 2014 02:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Well...then pass a few more laws against spying on you. You might even consider passing laws specifically forbidding America from spying on you.
These laws are even mentioned in the quoted (and linked) NYT-report above.

Frank Apisa wrote:
That should solve the problem.

I'm happy that all US-laws solve problems which had been in the States before those laws were passed.
Obviously for the first time in history - you really should teach other countries how to do so. (But perhaps you've got a patent for it.)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 2 May, 2014 03:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
You wrote,
Quote:
(But perhaps you've got a patent for it.)


Frank has a patent on self-aggrandizement, and not much else. He's the smartest thing on a2k, and he "knows it."
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 2 May, 2014 04:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
(But perhaps you've got a patent for it.)


Frank has a patent on self-aggrandizement, and not much else. He's the smartest thing on a2k, and he "knows it."


Hey, Boy. How ya doing?

Still sulking about **** that happened 70+ years ago?

No problem. You hate the US...as apparently Walter does. You guys should buy Tee shirts to proclaim that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Fri 2 May, 2014 11:57 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
You hate the US...as apparently Walter does. You guys should buy Tee shirts to proclaim that.[/b]
Quote:
ap·par·ent·ly adverb \-lē\
—used to describe something that appears to be true based on what is known
So you know that I hate the USA.
And that is based on the fact that I don't like it when someone including the USA doesn't watch our laws and acts like the Gestapo and STASI did.

Just to clarify: I don't really 'hate' anyone, especially not a complete nation.
I hate, what some do, including myself.

This is now the first time, Frank, that you really insulted me.
And you really to have a very queer understanding of laws. And how people feel, who suffered under the suppression of being spied on.

You don't own us like a ruler in ancient times! But you behave like it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2014 12:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Amen, Walter.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2014 12:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
On the other hand, Merkel, our lawmakers, the German media, the Federal Prosecution, .... and especially those, who were spied on by the STASI, do apparently hate the USA even more than I do.

I think, I can live with the fact that I want our laws and especially our constitution to be obeyed.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
You hate the US...as apparently Walter does. You guys should buy Tee shirts to proclaim that.[/b]
Quote:
ap·par·ent·ly adverb \-lē\
—used to describe something that appears to be true based on what is known
So you know that I hate the USA.
And that is based on the fact that I don't like it when someone including the USA doesn't watch our laws and acts like the Gestapo and STASI did.

Just to clarify: I don't really 'hate' anyone, especially not a complete nation.
I hate, what some do, including myself.

This is now the first time, Frank, that you really insulted me.
And you really to have a very queer understanding of laws. And how people feel, who suffered under the suppression of being spied on.

You don't own us like a ruler in ancient times! But you behave like it.


I said it appears you and ci hate America...and it does appear to me that you both do.

If I am wrong...I am wrong.

Not sure why you think I do not understand how Germans feel about being spied upon...but I do. However, it is a fact of life that countries, even allies, spy on each other.

I understand how Japanese feel about tsunamis...but I call to their attention that they live in an area of seismic activity...and tsunamis are a fact of life there.

We do not OWN you, Walter...nor have I ever suggested that we do. But we are going to spy on you. Your country, more than likely, is spying on others.

I am not trying to insult you, but I am going to respond to your endless reports about spying...with a bit of reality.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

On the other hand, Merkel, our lawmakers, the German media, the Federal Prosecution, .... and especially those, who were spied on by the STASI, do apparently hate the USA even more than I do.

I think, I can live with the fact that I want our laws and especially our constitution to be obeyed.


Says more than I can about how your attitude toward the US.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:17 am
Report from the National Journal. (I am unable to give a link.)


President Obama on Friday addressed the rolling controversy surrounding his administration's international surveillance and rejected suggestions that the U.S. had brokered a "no-spy agreement" with any of its allies.

"It's not quite accurate to say that the U.S. government offered a no-spy agreement and then withdrew it," Obama said during a news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel. "What is accurate to say is that we do not have a blanket no-spy agreement with any country" including Germany.

Obama continued: "What we do have are series of partnerships and procedures and processes that are built up between the various intelligence agencies, and what we're doing with the Germans--as we do with the French or British or Canadians or anybody--is to work through what exactly the rules are governing the relationship between each country and make sure that there are no misunderstandings."

Merkel's visit to the White House marks her first since revelations about the National Security Agency's surveillance programs surfaced last June due to leaks supplied by Edward Snowden. Among the disclosures were indications that Obama's administration had tapped Merkel's private phone.

The press conference largely focused on the Ukraine crisis and international sanctions on Russia, but it dovetailed into the issue of government surveillance when a German reporter asked Merkel if her country had regained its trust in Obama's administration.

"We have a few difficulties to overcome, [but] there's going to be cyber dialogue between our countries," Merkel said in response. "We have taken the first steps, and what is still dividing us--for example, issues of proportionality and the like--will be addressed, and it's going to be on the agenda for the next few weeks to come."
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I am not trying to insult you, but I am going to respond to your endless reports about spying...with a bit of reality.
This thread is about Snowden. Via Snowden a lot of documents were released. Many, if not most, related to spying.

That's what "my reports" are about. And that is reality, no fiction, as far as I know.


And by the way: c.i. started this thread. You are here as an contributor like I am.
Interesting response, though.


Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Jane Holl Lute (former Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security, now President and CEO of the Arlington based Council on CyberSecurity) gave an interview to Spiegel
Asked about the topic "privacy" she said that Americans think about it as limited influence of government on private life. European would understand the term differently, namely as the own control of private data and life.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
That's more or less the very same as in the article I've quoted yesterday - it has been the same press conference, but the New York Times reported about all of it.

I had linked my quote in yesterday's response.
I have no idea why you can't do it.
Here it is: Obama: 'We Do Not Have a Blanket No-Spy Agreement With Any Country' - German Chancellor Angela Merkel added that the countries have "difficulties yet to overcome."
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Jane Holl Lute (former Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security, now President and CEO of the Arlington based Council on CyberSecurity) gave an interview to Spiegel
Asked about the topic "privacy" she said that Americans think about it as limited influence of government on private life. European would understand the term differently, namely as the own control of private data and life.


Wishing for personal privacy of the kind some have had over the years...

...is like wishing for no earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tornadoes, or tsunamis, Walter.

The world has changed as regards personal privacy...and it will never return to what it once was...if in fact it ever was what some suppose it was.

It does not have to be the negative thing you view it to be...and may very well end up being something very valuable. It is not unlikely that the next stage of human evolution requires more transparency...and less privacy.

Lament it if you must. It is not, however, unreasonable to welcome it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 3 May, 2014 05:54 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

That's more or less the very same as in the article I've quoted yesterday - it has been the same press conference, but the New York Times reported about all of it.

I had linked my quote in yesterday's response.
I have no idea why you can't do it.
Here it is: Obama: 'We Do Not Have a Blanket No-Spy Agreement With Any Country' - German Chancellor Angela Merkel added that the countries have "difficulties yet to overcome."



I suspect that "difficulties yet to overcome" are code words for..."nothing is going to change."
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2014 06:05 am
@Frank Apisa,
Merkel said in yesterday's press conference:
"There are differences of opinion on what sort of balance to strike between the intensity of surveillance, of trying to protect the citizens against threats, and on the other hand, protecting individual privacy and individual freedom. and that will require further discussion between our two countries in order to overcome these differences of opinion."

I've tries to explain, Frank why changing the German laws and the German Basic Law ("constitution") seems to be difficult - not only in my view. (And EU-laws are similar.)
Your "nothing is going to change" seems to be correct under these premisses. (I've quoted the headline of the report, you quoted, but missed out in your quote, btw)
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 3 May, 2014 06:18 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Merkel said in yesterday's press conference:
"There are differences of opinion on what sort of balance to strike between the intensity of surveillance, of trying to protect the citizens against threats, and on the other hand, protecting individual privacy and individual freedom. and that will require further discussion between our two countries in order to overcome these differences of opinion."

I've tries to explain, Frank why changing the German laws and the German Basic Law ("constitution") seems to be difficult - not only in my view. (And EU-laws are similar.)
Your "nothing is going to change" seems to be correct under these premisses. (I've quoted the headline of the report, you quoted, but missed out in your quote, btw)


The fact that these people all seem to be trying to strike that "balance" is great. I honestly wish them success...but I do see the problems involved.

For the record, I remember the deep indignation I felt when the Israeli spying was unfolding here in the US. I remember how violated I felt...and I remember suggesting that friend should not spy on friend. So by no means am I unappreciative of your sentiments.

But at some point, I came to realize that it was naive of me to suppose allies would not spy on one another. Hell, husband and wives often spy on each other. Distrust (or simply being careful) seems to be a part of the human psyche.

In any case, I am trying to approach the issue from a realistic (as I see it) view...and that is why we are so often in different corners of the ring.

I appreciate your position, sensibilities, and input on this, Walter.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2014 06:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Oh, and Obama responded to what Merkel said (see above):


Quote:
What I’ve also done is taken the unprecedented step of ordering our intelligence communities to take the privacy interests of non-U.S. persons into account in everything that they do. Something that’s not been done before and most other countries in the world do not do. What I have said is the privacy interests of non-U.S. citizens are deeply relevant and have to be taken into account and we have to have policies to protect them, not just U.S. persons, and we are in the process of implementing a whole series of those steps. we have shared with the Germans the things that we are doing.
Which brings me back to what Jane Holl Lute said about the different understandings of privacy in the USA and Europe ...
revelette2
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2014 08:05 am
@Walter Hinteler,
What is the difference in understanding on privacy between the US and Europe. And are you sure you speak for all of Europe? After all, from what I have gathered the UK does as much spying as does the US.
 

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