41
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 01:07 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The UK and Germany are allies to us...


You don't treat allies like that.


Sure you do. We're doing it right now.

If you want to conceive of this problem as a "in a perfect world" scenario...fine. But this ain't a perfect world.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 02:38 pm
From the NYT's Five Thirts Eight blog (I copy/paste it in full length, since some might not be able to read that article.)

Quote:
July 10, 2013, 3:50 pm
Public Opinion Shifts on Security-Liberty Balance
By NATE SILVER

A new Quinnipiac poll has found a significant shift in public opinion on the trade-off between civil liberties and national security. In the new survey, released on Wednesday, 45 percent of the public said they thought the government’s antiterrorism policies have “gone too far in restricting the average person’s civil liberties” — as compared with 40 percent who said they have “not gone far enough to adequately protect the country.”

By comparison, in a January 2010 Quinnipiac poll that posed the same question, only 25 percent of the public said the government had gone too far in restricting civil liberties, while 63 percent said it hadn’t gone far enough to protect the country.

Although the shift in opinion is apparent among virtually all demographic groups, it has been somewhat more pronounced among Republicans, who may be growing more skeptical about President Obama’s national security policies. Whereas, in the 2010 survey, 17 percent of Republicans said the government had gone too far to restrict civil liberties while 72 percent said it had not gone far enough to protect the country, the numbers among G.O.P. voters were nearly even in the new poll, with 41 percent saying that antiterrorism programs had gone too far and 46 percent saying they haven’t gone far enough.

We generally caution against reading too much into a single poll result. But there are several reasons to think that the shift detected by the Quinnipiac poll is meaningful. First, the magnitude of the change was considerably larger than the margin of error in the poll. Second, the poll applied exactly the same question wording in both 2010 and 2013, making a direct comparison more reliable. Third, this was a well-constructed survey question, describing both the benefit (protecting the country) and the cost (restricting civil liberties) of antiterrorism programs in a balanced way.

What is less clear how much of the shift was triggered by the recent disclosures about the National Security Administration’s domestic surveillance programs, as opposed to reflecting a longer-term trend in public opinion. A Fox News poll conducted in April, just after the Boston Marathon bombings but before the N.S.A. story broke, found that only 43 percent of the public was “willing to give up some of your personal freedom in order to reduce the threat of terrorism” — considerably lower than in other instances of the survey. However, Fox News had last posed this question in 2006. Either way, it seems safe to conclude that the climate of public opinion on this issue has changed considerably since the years closely following the Sept. 11 attacks.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2nrowgw.jpg
The Quinnipiac poll also asked about Edward J. Snowden, the former N.S.A. contractor who disclosed details about the agency’s programs to newspapers. The Quinnipiac poll, in contrast to other recent surveys, found ostensibly sympathetic views toward Mr. Snowden, with 34 percent of respondents describing him as “more of a traitor” while 55 percent said he was “more of a whistle-blower.”

Whereas I find Quinnipiac’s broader question on national security to be quite meaningful, I’m not sure that the one about Mr. Snowden tells us very much. The problem is that the sympathetic response toward him in the poll may reflect a sympathetically worded question.

The poll described Mr. Snowden as “the national security consultant who released information to the media about the phone scanning program.” However, Mr. Snowden has also released information to the news media about other N.S.A. activities, such as those it has conducted in China. Some Americans may be pleased by Mr. Snowden’s disclosures about how the N.S.A. conducted surveillance against U.S. citizens – but displeased that he has also disclosed details about its international surveillance. The Quinnipiac poll should probably have described a fuller spectrum of the information that Mr. Snowden has released.



Poll:
July 10, 2013 - U.S. Voters Say Snowden Is Whistle-Blower, Not Traitor, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Big Shift On Civil Liberties vs. Counter-Terrorism
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 02:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
We're not proper allies, the special relationship is a load of old bollocks. We're viewed as something similar to a vassal state.

It's not about 'a perfect world,' it's about what should reasonably be expected.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 02:42 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I want to know what the participants knew about "data collection" and how it was used.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 02:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think, it was a poll (resp. were polls) and not some kind of knowledge examination.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 02:58 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

We're not proper allies, the special relationship is a load of old bollocks. We're viewed as something similar to a vassal state.


Perhaps you are projecting your feelings. I certainly do not think of our allies around the world as "vassal states." Among my personal acquaintances I've never heard anything like that even vaguely suggested.

I consider the UK and Germany to be valued friends. I hope most other Americans feel that same way.

I would like to see both countries stand up to America more when the occasion warrants such action.

Quote:
It's not about 'a perfect world,' it's about what should reasonably be expected.


I appreciate your opinion on that. My opinion differs.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:01 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

We're not proper allies, the special relationship is a load of old bollocks. We're viewed as something similar to a vassal state.
Indeed. And when you read what our chancellor wrote today in in a weekly paper ...

Quote:
[...]In an interview with the weekly Die Zeit, Merkel defended German intelligence services and the surveillance of telecommunications under certain circumstances.
Preventing terrorist attacks is not possible "without the possibility of telecommunications monitoring," she told the paper. "The work of intelligence agencies in democratic states was always vital to the safety of citizens and will remain so in the future."

While the accusations against the NSA must be thoroughly clarified, Merkel urged those debating the issue to remember, along with "the more than justified questions, that America is and has been our truest ally throughout the decades and remains so."

Reports about the NSA's so-called Prism spying program still need to be addressed, the chancellor added, rejecting suggestions that the agency's methods were comparable to those of the feared East German secret police, the Stasi.

"For me, there is absolutely no comparison between the Stasi in East Germany and the work of intelligence services in democratic states," she told Die Zeit. These are "two totally different things, and such comparisons only lead to a trivialization of what the Stasi did to the people in East Germany."

Merkel stressed that she had only found out about the surveillance program "through the current reporting" on the topic. Similar claims have been made by two ministers who should be well-versed in the activities of Germany's intelligence agencies: Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich and Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger.

Since the spying scandal first broke, however, the opposition has openly questioned the notion that the German government was unaware of the American and British surveillance programs. That they know more than they are admitting would seem to be further bolstered by an interview with American whistleblower Edward Snowden in the current issue of SPIEGEL, in which he says that the Germans and the NSA are "in bed together."
[...]
So far, Merkel's center-right governing coalition has emerged from the spying scandal relatively unscathed. According to a recent survey by German pollster Forsa, the opposition SPD and Green Party continue to lag significantly behind.

Although this is the first time Merkel herself has commented on the surveillance controversy, her spokesman Steffen Seibert made remarks on the matter to reporters last week. "The monitoring of friends -- this is unacceptable. It can't be tolerated. We're no longer in the Cold War," Seibert said on the chancellor's behalf, referring specifically to allegations that the NSA bugged European Union missions in New York, Brussels and Washington.
Source
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:09 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

We're not proper allies, the special relationship is a load of old bollocks. We're viewed as something similar to a vassal state.
Indeed. And when you read what our chancellor wrote today in in a weekly paper ...

Quote:
[...]In an interview with the weekly Die Zeit, Merkel defended German intelligence services and the surveillance of telecommunications under certain circumstances.
Preventing terrorist attacks is not possible "without the possibility of telecommunications monitoring," she told the paper. "The work of intelligence agencies in democratic states was always vital to the safety of citizens and will remain so in the future."

While the accusations against the NSA must be thoroughly clarified, Merkel urged those debating the issue to remember, along with "the more than justified questions, that America is and has been our truest ally throughout the decades and remains so."

Reports about the NSA's so-called Prism spying program still need to be addressed, the chancellor added, rejecting suggestions that the agency's methods were comparable to those of the feared East German secret police, the Stasi.

"For me, there is absolutely no comparison between the Stasi in East Germany and the work of intelligence services in democratic states," she told Die Zeit. These are "two totally different things, and such comparisons only lead to a trivialization of what the Stasi did to the people in East Germany."

Merkel stressed that she had only found out about the surveillance program "through the current reporting" on the topic. Similar claims have been made by two ministers who should be well-versed in the activities of Germany's intelligence agencies: Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich and Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger.

Since the spying scandal first broke, however, the opposition has openly questioned the notion that the German government was unaware of the American and British surveillance programs. That they know more than they are admitting would seem to be further bolstered by an interview with American whistleblower Edward Snowden in the current issue of SPIEGEL, in which he says that the Germans and the NSA are "in bed together."
[...]
So far, Merkel's center-right governing coalition has emerged from the spying scandal relatively unscathed. According to a recent survey by German pollster Forsa, the opposition SPD and Green Party continue to lag significantly behind.

Although this is the first time Merkel herself has commented on the surveillance controversy, her spokesman Steffen Seibert made remarks on the matter to reporters last week. "The monitoring of friends -- this is unacceptable. It can't be tolerated. We're no longer in the Cold War," Seibert said on the chancellor's behalf, referring specifically to allegations that the NSA bugged European Union missions in New York, Brussels and Washington.
Source


Frankly, I find Chancellor Merkel's characterization of events a great deal more persuasive and reasonable than yours and Izzy's, Walter.

I appreciate both of your positions...but you both seem to be missing the wider context. Merkel seems, at very least, aware of that context.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I agree. Merkel's statements,
Quote:
In an interview with the weekly Die Zeit, Merkel defended German intelligence services and the surveillance of telecommunications under certain circumstances.
Preventing terrorist attacks is not possible "without the possibility of telecommunications monitoring," she told the paper. "The work of intelligence agencies in democratic states was always vital to the safety of citizens and will remain so in the future."


Seems pretty obvious that "Germany performs surveillance of telecommunications."

If that's against the laws of Germany, Merkel needs to be charged with crimes, and sent to prison.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Seems pretty obvious that "Germany performs surveillance of telecommunications."

If that's against the laws of Germany, Merkel needs to be charged with crimes, and sent to prison.
Of course that's done ... It's regulated in the Code of Criminal Procedure, in various laws related to police and customs ... The related statistics are online.
I'm not sure if you find them in the English version as well, but you can look and search here
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I agree. Merkel's statements,
Quote:
In an interview with the weekly Die Zeit, Merkel defended German intelligence services and the surveillance of telecommunications under certain circumstances.
Preventing terrorist attacks is not possible "without the possibility of telecommunications monitoring," she told the paper. "The work of intelligence agencies in democratic states was always vital to the safety of citizens and will remain so in the future."

Walter Hinteler wrote:

[quote]"The monitoring of friends -- this is unacceptable. It can't be tolerated. We're no longer in the Cold War," Seibert said on the chancellor's behalf, referring specifically to allegations that the NSA bugged European Union missions in New York, Brussels and Washington.

[/quote]
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The link doesn't mention anything about telecommunication surveillance.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Frankly, I find Chancellor Merkel's characterization of events a great deal more persuasive and reasonable than yours and Izzy's, Walter.

Der Spiegel wrote:
In the Die Zeit interview, Merkel calls attention to the responsibility of the coordinator of Germany's intelligence agencies. To the question of whether she personally reads the reports sent by the agencies, she says that the duty falls to her chief of staff, Ronald Pofalla. "For a long time there has been someone in the Chancellery who coordinates with the intelligence agencies, either a minister or a senior member of staff," she said.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:56 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The one in German does. I'm not going to look for it again, but last year's number was about 23,000. (mainly drug-related, and such.)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:56 pm

ci, Walter...

...with all the respect in the world...

...one cannot make documents like the Constitution become a suicide pact.

I think Merkel is correct...and I think the monitoring will continue under whoever becomes the leaders after Merkel and Obama are gone.

And as I said earlier, I am not merely acquiescing to such conduct...I am encouraging it. If I were the person leading these countries...I would be doing it. Anyone NOT doing it, in my opinion...is simply not up to the job.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:00 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
How did they determine it was "drug related?"
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
My dearest Frank. Of course all governments somehow need spies and these do some kinds of monitoring.
Here, it's all regulated by laws.And if an agency doesn't follow those laws ... see Luxembourg's Juncker's fate today (or actually he will announce it tomorrow).

But that isn't my problem. My problem isn't that the USA is spying on terrorists - my problem is that they monitor all our telecommunications, emails etc

(As an aside: even the cement for the new NSA spy centre 66th Military Intelligence Brigade's barracks in Wiesbaden is imported from the USA ... like everything else, including architects, engineers, workers ...)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

How did they determine it was "drug related?"
???
It has to be noted in the related juridical order.
Seems to be different in the USA, but here the police or the customs have to go to the court, show evidence .... then they wait, until the judge gives his decision. And all that and more is noted/archived by the Federal Office of Justice which is the central service authority of the federal German judiciary.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

My dearest Frank. Of course all governments somehow need spies and these do some kinds of monitoring.
Here, it's all regulated by laws.And if an agency doesn't follow those laws ... see Luxembourg's Juncker's fate today (or actually he will announce it tomorrow).

But that isn't my problem. My problem isn't that the USA is spying on terrorists - my problem is that they monitor all our telecommunications, emails etc (As an aside: even the cement for the new NSA spy centre 66th Military Intelligence Brigade's barracks in Wiesbaden is imported from the USA ... like everything else, including architects, engineers, workers ...)


I agree with you here, Walter.

We should only spy on acknowledged terrorists...or on people we know for certain are terrorists.

So we are in agreement, correct?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:18 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
But, how did they determine it was drug related? Were they listening to one, two, a hundred, a thousand calls? At what point did they determine it was drug related?
0 Replies
 
 

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