42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Try some pertinent facts.

Here's one, there is no evidence whatsoever that Merkel's Germany spied on Obama. There's plenty of evidence that Obama's America spied on Merkel. Those are the facts. Let's try to stick to them.
anonymously99
 
  0  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:35 pm
@izzythepush,
Why would someone want to spy on Obama?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Oh, that terrible US government. You really think it is disgusting...don't you.

You ought to consider moving to someplace where that doesn't happen...so you can be happy.


So if I do not care for what some assholes that had gotten their hands on some of the control of government are doing to my nation I should say I will just leave instead of doing my very best to removed those hands from the reins of government?

Seem like you are supporting my position that we are going toward a totalitarian state in fact by your comments we are even further down the road in your opinion then I think we are as you are stating that the people no longer can effect the course of our government and all those who are unhappy can do is leave.
anonymously99
 
  0  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:40 pm
@BillRM,
But is there anything you yourself can do about the situation?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:41 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Try some pertinent facts.

Here's one, there is no evidence whatsoever that Merkel's Germany spied on Obama. There's plenty of evidence that Obama's America spied on Merkel. Those are the facts. Let's try to stick to them.


Okay...so we spied on Germany...and we do not know if Germany spied on us.

NOTHING I have said contradicts those "facts", Izzy.

So what are you getting at?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:44 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Oh, that terrible US government. You really think it is disgusting...don't you.

You ought to consider moving to someplace where that doesn't happen...so you can be happy.


So if I do not care for what some assholes that had gotten their hands on some of the control of government are doing to my nation I should say I will just leave instead of doing my very best to removed those hands from the reins of government?


Nope! You should do something constructive to "remove those hands" from the government.

Let us know when you start...okay?

Quote:
Seem like you are supporting my position that we are going toward a totalitarian state in fact by your comments we are even further down the road in your opinion then I think we are as you are stating that the people no longer can effect the course of our government and all those who are unhappy can do is leave.


I am saying that our notion of "individual privacy" will change drastically during the coming decades...and that it will not necessarily be a bad thing. My guess is that some people in the future will look back on people arguing your position much the same way we look back on people who were regularly yelling, "get a horse" because they did not want automobiles in play.
BillRM
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:44 pm
@anonymously99,
Quote:
But is there anything you yourself can do about the situation?


I still think that the bulk of the American people have some control over what our government is doing in our name.

As those in power had been hiding what they have been doing with secret stamps, it look like these assholes are also under the opinion that the American people as a whole can still stop them once they learn of the situation.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:47 pm
@izzythepush,
Maybe you are unaware, izzy, that a large number of people consider the intelligence, even the actual brain function, of others, to be more or less defunct and little other than submissive receptacles to anything said to them and with no capacity to respond to whatever it is.

As a general rule they are readily identified by what they say to others and the manner in which they say it. It is very common, more-so in some places than others, and thus it is unreasonable to expect Apisa to be an exception.

As Evelyn Waugh said, polite Americans don't even anticipate anybody even listening to their opinions and are so grateful to have an audience that is prepared to imitate a listening and interested mien that they are prepared to fulfill their obligations and take turns and pretend to listen to what is addressed to them.

In social gatherings it is a scientific fact that this latter etiquette wanes in direct proportion to the amount of alcohol consumed and this is why in such settings the gentle chit chat during the early exchanges is gradually morphed into a racket of shouting which sounds like an undifferentiated roar from a few hundred yards away.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:58 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You give the impression that your opinion should count as much as a fact. You implied that Walter's not knowing if Germany spied on America meant you were right in guessing Germany had spied on America.

Your whole argument is based on guesses, take them away and there's very little of substance left.
JTT
 
  -1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank: am saying that our notion of "individual privacy" will change drastically during the coming decades...and that it will not necessarily be a bad thing

-----

Frank just read Nineteen Eighty-Four and he's illustrating his wisdom.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:12 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You give the impression that your opinion should count as much as a fact. You implied that Walter's not knowing if Germany spied on America meant you were right in guessing Germany had spied on America.


I have no need for Walter's "not knowing", Izzy.

There is absolutely no way whatever that I could know that they are spying on us either...and I think I have made that clear...THAT I DO NOT KNOW.

But since it appears that spying has been a part of life in civilizations throughout history...I see nothing particularly out-of-line about guessing that the Germans are doing it. I also guess the French are doing it; the Israelis; the Chinese; the Japanese; and the Togoese. Looks to me to be reasonable to guess that all god's chillen are doing it, Iz.

Why do you have so much problem with that? What is bothering you so?

Quote:

Your whole argument is based on guesses, take them away and there's very little of substance left.


My argument IS based on facts.

FACT: The US has charged Edward Snowden with stealing classified documents and releasing them to unauthorized parties.

FACT: In order for Edward Snowden to deal with these charges, he has to come back to the US and stand trial.

FACT: HE has stated that he has no defense.

FACT: His alternative is to remain where he has been granted asylum.

My argument right along has been that I want to see Snowden get a fair trial...and the only way he can do that is to come back to the US. But that if he wants to remain in Russia...and if that is okay with the Russians...that is an acceptable alternative.

So how can you say what you are saying?
BillRM
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Nope! You should do something constructive to "remove those hands" from the government.

Let us know when you start...okay?


Been doing so here and in other places spreading the knowledge of what is happening and putting it in content.

Doing my best time after time to share the knowledge of technology counter measures that anyone can take to give the the government spy masters a harder time.

Technology such as tor at torproject.org, truecrypt at truecrypt.org, pgp at pgpi.org, cryptocat at crytocat.cat and so on.

You can not stop target spying but if enough people begin to used the programs above and others such programs, not even using the full GNP of this nation to fund NSA could the government be able to do massive random spying on all of us.

Been thinking of writing a manual on how to set up secure computers and computer communication by making use of all the freely available resources on the net.

There is no real reason to roll over to the out of control intelligence community.
An of course challenging people like you who are supporting the idea that we gain anything by giving up all our privacy under the **** poor excuse of the danger of a few middle east terrorists.
anonymously99
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:14 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Frank: am saying that our notion of "individual privacy" will change drastically during the coming decades...and that it will not necessarily be a bad thing---

--Frank just read Nineteen Eighty-Four and he's illustrating his wisdom.


69
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:20 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Nope! You should do something constructive to "remove those hands" from the government.

Let us know when you start...okay?


Been doing so here and in other places spreading the knowledge of what is happening and putting it in content.


Not sure what "putting in in content" is supposed to mean...but if you actually meant "putting it into context"...

...NO YOU HAVEN'T.

I, on the other hand, have been putting it into context.

Quote:
Doing my best time after time to share the knowledge of technology counter measures that anyone can take to give the the government spy masters a harder time.


Good. That should a lot to stem their hands.

Quote:
Technology such as tor at torproject.org, truecrypt at truecrypt.org, pgp at pgpi.org, cryptocat at crytocat.cat and so on.


That too.

Quote:
You can not stop target spying but if enough people begin to used the programs above and others such programs, not even using the full GNP of this nation to fund NSA could the government be able to do massive random spying on all of us.


If the bear hadn't stopped to....etc.

Quote:
Been thinking of writing a manual on how to set up secure computers and computer communication by making use of all the freely available resources on the net.


Learn to write a coherent paragraph on A2K first!

Quote:
There is no real reason to roll over to the out of control intelligence community.


And the tin foil brigade of America is not doing so.


Quote:
An of course challenging people like you who are supporting the idea that we gain anything by giving up all our privacy under the **** poor excuse of the danger of a few middle east terrorists.


I am saying that the privacy will go...NO MATTER WHAT.

And it does not matter how many times you yell, "Get a horse."
JTT
 
  -1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank: Learn to write a coherent paragraph on A2K first!

Frank Apisa, in this same posting:

"Good. That should a lot to stem their hands."

Back to your old tricks, frank! It has been shown time and again that what you know of English grammar is almost nothing.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:31 pm
@BillRM,
Bill: Technology such as tor at torproject.org, truecrypt at truecrypt.org, pgp at pgpi.org, cryptocat at crytocat.cat and so on.

I see that the USA military and cops use tor, Bill.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
If you want Snowden to get a fair trial, you should insist on the neutrality of the court, one where the American government cannot influence the appointment of a judge. The Hague for example, I'm sure arrangements could be made.

As for the likelihood of a fair trial in the US, the Bradley Manning trial sets a precedent. The distinction between military and civilian courts does not alter that precedent in any way shape or form.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 03:50 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

If you want Snowden to get a fair trial, you should insist on the neutrality of the court, one where the American government cannot influence the appointment of a judge. The Hague for example, I'm sure arrangements could be made.


Why on Earth would I want that?

The man is charged with breaking US laws...serious crimes against the United States. In order for him to get a FAIR trial...the trial would have to be held here.

Quote:

As for the likelihood of a fair trial in the US, the Bradley Manning trial sets a precedent. The distinction between military and civilian courts does not alter that precedent in any way shape or form.


What makes you think that Bradley Manning did not get a fair trial? Because the verdict did not go the way you wanted it to go?

Is that a reasonable decider, Izzy.

Step back from this a second...forget whatever it is about me that is bugging you so much.

Look at it without all the emotion.

Brandley Manning broke laws...and was tried and convicted. How can you, from where you are, possibly suggest that the trial was not fair? He had a defense team...and a military court. Military law was followed.

Why are you so certain Snowden cannot get a fair trial here?

I suspect it is because you think that the government can prove that he did, in fact, steal classified documents...and did release them to unauthorized persons.

That is the charge...and you apparently are afraid that a fair trial will convict him...not that he cannot get a fair trial.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 04:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

What makes you think that Bradley Manning did not get a fair trial?


His treatment.

Quote:
The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.

Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

"The special rapporteur concludes that imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone who has not been found guilty of any crime is a violation of his right to physical and psychological integrity as well as of his presumption of innocence," Mendez writes.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

Stick to the facts, stop making assumptions and guesses.
spendius
 
  2  
Wed 12 Feb, 2014 04:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Why do you have so much problem with that? What is bothering you so?


What is bothering izzy is that he "listened" to the statements that "I also guess the French are doing it; the Israelis; the Chinese; the Japanese; and the Togoese. Looks to me to be reasonable to guess that all god's chillen are doing it," and having been so impolite enough to have listened to it and thus knows what a load of tripe it is.

That is because in all these countries there is a distinct class of people who try to spy on all the others and avoid being spied upon themselves. They know what they are doing and play the game, roughly, within an agreed framework and respecting each other to greater or lesser extents.

There is another class of people, by far the largest of the two classes, which is not spying on anybody and does not expect to be spied upon for no particular reason and at the whim of operatives analysing meta-data.

The Snowdenards might feel that without any disclosures a situation would arise at some point where they needed to march on Washington to restore their freedoms. And they wish to avoid that sort of thing. They know that the taking away of freedoms is highly addictive for those who get started doing it and the craving can result in there being no more freedoms of any sort in principle. Even, as Dylan said, your home garden might be against the law.

Supporters of the NRA often justify gun ownership on the basis that they might sometime need to take such drastic steps. Indeed, they claim that the right to bear arms was granted in the Constitution for the precise purpose should it ever be needed.

The anti-Snowndenards being perceived as those trying to take those freedoms away.

Spengler predicted a long time ago that the final battle would be between Money and the Blood. And here it is.
0 Replies
 
 

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