42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 08:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
On what are you suggesting I have changed my mind.

I can think of nothing in the quoted statement that rises to a change of mind.
As far as I remember, you didn't say before that he could "stay in exile with asylum granted".

But I can be wrong here.


He always had the option to stay where he could/would be granted asylum. By saying that I thought he should return for trial...I thought I was acknowledging that. Obviously I was acknowledging the fact that he did not have to voluntarily return...and while in a grant of asylum, I can think of no way for us to capture him...unless we get James Bond involved.

In any case, at no point have I ever suggested that asylum (where appropriate) could not be granted and received by Snowden. Obviously there are some countries where that would not be possible, because treaties might interfere...but Russia is a country where that factor does not come into play.

So Snowden can stay in Russia...a place where there is much less intrusion into the privacy of each individual...or maybe go back to China, where personal privacy is even more respected.

(Sorry about the sarcasm, Walter. I know you are speaking and arguing from convictions. But keep in mind that I am also.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 08:33 am
@JPB,
In German law, we know the legal concept of "extra-statutory necessity".
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 08:35 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I didn't say it would no longer be a crime. Is justifiable homicide a crime? A person who commits homicide is charged as such and then is given the opportunity to say that his crime was justifiable based on certain conditions. The jury gets to hear the circumstances and use that defense in their deliberations. It's not ludicrous to say that a public interest defense should be allowed before a jury for their consideration.


Well I disagree, because we have to go with the laws as they now stand.

But I call your attention to the fact that a competent defense team could easily appeal any refusal of a trial judge to allow for "public interest defense"...all the way up to the Supreme Court.

Ultimately, we have to accept the procedures now in place...and the appeal to the SCOTUS might result in a finding that the "public interest defense" cannot be denied.

He should come back....and face trial...and resolve all this...since he is so interested in these kinds of matters.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 08:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

In German law, we know the legal concept of "extra-statutory necessity".


Perhaps next time, Snowden will steal German classified documents. His defense will be more solid.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 08:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Perhaps next time, Snowden will steal German classified documents. His defense will be more solid.
As a foreigner? That certainly would be considered being espionage here (besides others).
JPB
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 09:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But I call your attention to the fact that a competent defense team could easily appeal any refusal of a trial judge to allow for "public interest defense"...all the way up to the Supreme Court.


Now you're the one making claims about due process without a legal background. I don't know at all that that's an appealable ruling, say nothing about an easily appealable ruling. Do you?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 09:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Perhaps next time, Snowden will steal German classified documents. His defense will be more solid.
As a foreigner? That certainly would be considered being espionage here (besides others).


Once again, I was being sarcastic, Walter.

What they do with regard to law in your country...simply does not apply to Snowden here.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 09:04 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Quote:
But I call your attention to the fact that a competent defense team could easily appeal any refusal of a trial judge to allow for "public interest defense"...all the way up to the Supreme Court.


Now you're the one making claims about due process without a legal background. I don't know at all that that's an appealable ruling, say nothing about an easily appealable ruling. Do you?


I stand corrected...and I withdraw the comment. I do not know the law on this matter...and was merely supposing.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 09:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
What they do with regard to law in your country...simply does not apply to Snowden here.
Correct - I actually never said such.
But our laws apply to those who spy here, from here, to people living here.
And thanks to Snowden, we know about it.
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 09:34 am
It strikes me that Eddie is not coming back in the calculable future and thus this posturing is a bit like booking a ticket on the first colonising flight to Mars in order to place oneself above the common herd without taking any risks.

A piece of schtick in other words-- a show-business routine or piece of business inserted to gain a laugh or draw attention to oneself. And in this case requiring no imagination or skill.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 09:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
What they do with regard to law in your country...simply does not apply to Snowden here.
Correct - I actually never said such.
But our laws apply to those who spy here, from here, to people living here.
And thanks to Snowden, we know about it.


So what debt do you owe him, Walter. Is there less spying going on as a result of the fact that he stole classified American documents and released them to unauthorized people?

Do you need other people to steal other documents on a regular basis to feel more secure?

And how do you feel about any damage to intelligence gathering efforts...that result in terrorist activities?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 09:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
So what debt do you owe him, Walter. Is there less spying going on as a result of the fact that he stole classified American documents and released them to unauthorized people?
I don't know, if there is more or less spying going on.
What I do think, however, is that the USA is a bit more ... thoughtful, when doing it on us Germans.

Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you need other people to steal other documents on a regular basis to feel more secure?
Unfortunately, it seems so - until now, I had thought that we could trust our allied friends.

Frank Apisa wrote:
And how do you feel about any damage to intelligence gathering efforts...that result in terrorist activities?
I think that normal police work plus lawful knowledge gathered by other "agencies" is that what should be done.

I'm not driving in a tank, when I'm on the highway - but certainly such would make me feeling more secure ...
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:01 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

NO country could allow for its classified papers to be taken and release with impunity.

NO COUNTRY!


Absolutely. It doesn't matter why Snowden's self-styled or "purely altruistic reason," is acknowledged, the realism is he stealthily purloined US classified documents along with US military information that is considered a Violation of the Espionage Act, and considered high treason. The powers that be in the US government all agree, Snowden broke the law and he will have to face the music if he's ever returned to the US. Some think he might not get a free trial; well, no one among us is in a position to determine this. Snowden will be tried by a group of his peers. Another thing, supposing other "Snowdens" take it in their stride they don't like this US Intelligence program or that US particular classified program and decide to steal and go international?! Our security would soon break down altogether.
JTT
 
  0  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
So what debt do you owe him, Walter. Is there less spying going on as a result of the fact that he stole classified American documents and released them to unauthorized people?

Don't be your usual stupid self, Frank. Of course nothing concrete has changed for the criminals are still in charge.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Edward Snowden is charged with crimes committed under existing law...and to suggest that unless new laws are made which make the crimes no longer crimes a trial would not be fair...is ludicrous.




Bradley Manning was held in conditions that were 'Cruel and inhuman,' and he had little more than a show trial.

If Snowden had actually been spying for Russia instead of acting altruistically he'd probably have a street named after him in Moscow and would be living in luxury. Anna Chapman avoided a trial.
http://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/6340317616874187505232366_48_kkushenkoachapman1_030210035650-300x450.jpg
JTT
 
  -1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:26 am
@Moment-in-Time,
MiT: The powers that be in the US government all agree,

The criminal powers and their apologists all agree, MiT. Big difference. Odd that such a sharp lady would miss that.
anonymously99
 
  0  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:41 am
@JTT,
She may had missed it purposely. Shocked

Ever think of that.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:49 am
@izzythepush,
Snowden is not in the military, his trial would not be the same as Bradley Manning's trial.
revelette2
 
  1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, then, he gave documents, so, he released them.
JTT
 
  -1  
Mon 10 Feb, 2014 10:55 am
@revelette2,
Why don't you talk about trials for Obama or that guy that lied to congress or the war criminals bush, Cheney, wolfowitz, rice, Powell, ... or the numerous other war criminals and terrorists that inhabit the USA, Rev?
 

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