Snowdon is a dummy

I certainly can understand that the USA wants Snowden back - at least, they want all the documents backs.

And 'yes', he broke local law - that's one of the reasons, people ask for asylum elsewhere. (At least nine Russians [the Russians say "about 20"] who did similar in Russia, got asylum in the USA.)

What I've learnt and what affects me and my home-country, is that the U.S. have no respect for a loyal ally, the sovereignty of our country and our free and democratic elected lawmakers and government. Full stop. (That's period in AE, I think)

The USA signed the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany in 1990 - the Four Powers renounced all rights they held in Germany, allowing a united Germany to become fully sovereign the following year. And this treaty, the so-called Two Plus Four Treaty, had been "speedily" ratified by USA, too.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I certainly can understand that the USA wants Snowden back - at least, they want all the documents backs.

At this point, Walter, I think getting the documents back is not worth the bother. Everything is either out in the public domain...or is so compromised, it is valueless.

Quote:

And 'yes', he broke local law - that's one of the reasons, people ask for asylum elsewhere. (At least nine Russians [the Russians say "about 20"] who did similar in Russia, got asylum in the USA.)

I have no problem with him seeking and being granted asylum...just as I have no problem with people seeking asylum here.

And I still am not entirely convinced he "broke the law." He may have a valid defense that we do not know about. That is one of the reasons I want him to get a fair trial.

But if he prefers to remain in Russia...fine with me.

Quote:

What I've learnt and what affects me and my home-country, is that the U.S. have no respect for a loyal ally, the sovereignty of our country and our free and democratic elected lawmakers and government. Full stop. (That's period in AE, I think)

The USA signed the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany in 1990 - the Four Powers renounced all rights they held in Germany, allowing a united Germany to become fully sovereign the following year. And this treaty, the so-called Two Plus Four Treaty, had been "speedily" ratified by USA, too.

If you are saying that the US spies on other countries and individuals in other countries...and on individuals here in this country...

...my guess you would be correct on all counts.

My further guess would be that EVERY nation on this planet does variations on that same theme...including yours.

If this distresses you...you are probably being unrealistically naive.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

No...I am the one who champions a fair trial for the accused...

That is not true. Apisa champions what he considers a fair trial. It has been explained why a fair trial is impossible and his blinkers have prevented him seeing it. Which is why he continues to make a fool of himself and looks to be intending carrying on doing.

To explain it more fully on the basis of the spectrum of susceptibility to suggestion and the factors which cause the wide divergence of the characteristic in any population, seen actuarially, is, I fear, beyond Apisa's mental reach.

Apisa suffers from an extreme version of susceptibility to the suggestion that he is intelligent which, as far as I can tell, could not have been derived from external sources.

Eddie suffered from an extreme version of susceptibility to the suggestion that the Constitution is sacred and must be upheld by all those who love America even at the cost of great personal sacrifice and that it was derived from external sources of considerable strength and most likely when he was young. If it was a delusion then the external sources are responsible. There is no scientific research on this subject which comes to any other conclusion.

Apisa simply blithely assumes that the susceptibility to the idea of the sanctity of the Constitution is constant across the population and that such uniformity, which does not exist, thankfully, is consistent with his own. Anything else would confuse him. Which is why he makes no attempt to engage his attention to this fundamental scientific principle and is thus a moron.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

My further guess would be that EVERY nation on this planet does variations on that same theme...including yours.

If this distresses you...you are probably being unrealistically naive.

It might be so. Or not.

But here, we have got documents showing that the USA has done.
And your president said that they won't spy on the mobile phone of a German chancellor anymore ... leaving out the spying on of every other politician

I don't think that I am "unrealistically naive" at all.
And if we or any other of your allies listens to your president's phone calls and conversations - I would have the very same negative opinion about that as well.

I've always been aware of the fact that we have been fiefs/poodles/vassals of the USA.
I really thought that this had changed after 1990. But paper doesn't blush.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
My further guess would be that EVERY nation on this planet does variations on that same theme...including yours.

If this distresses you...you are probably being unrealistically naive.

It might be so. Or not.

But here, we have got documents showing that the USA has done.
And your president said that they won't spy on the mobile phone of a German chancellor anymore ... leaving out the spying on of every other politician

I don't think that I am "unrealistically naive" at all.
And if we or any other of your allies listens to your president's phone calls and conversations - I would have the very same negative opinion about that as well.

I've always been aware of the fact that we have been fiefs/poodles/vassals of the USA.
I really thought that this had changed after 1990. But paper doesn't blush.

Walter, there is no way I want Germany or any other nation to be fiefs/poodles/vassals of the US. The very notion of a "most powerful nation" sit with me about the way "the most powerful kid in the playground" would.

But I am not going to kid myself about the fact that nations spy on other nations.

There's even mention of spies in the Bible. Caesar had his spies; Pharaoh had his; all of the countries of Europe and Asia had spies...tribes in Africa probably had spies.

It happens.

And I would guess that most of them used the top spying equipment available to them.

Unless you are prepared to say that Germany, for instance, is one country that wouldn't do that...

...that Germany would forgo spying techniques they had access to, but feel it would be a "bad" thing to do...

...then where are we?

Yes...it is out in the open now.

I don't feel better...or see that the situation is appreciably better now that it is.

In fact, I think it would have been better to have it stay where it was...with everything being done as it was...and with everyone pretending that it wasn't.

THAT, in my opinion, made for a better relationship.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

As said, Frank, if, for instance, we do the same, I certainly would act and react the same way.

But either no-one stole documents proving that or we don't do it or the US-president doesn't mind that we do it or ...

I mean, the USA doesn't trust us. They might have found something. But keep quiet about it, even when documents come to the light showing their attitude towards allies.
That is of course very honourable!

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

As said, Frank, if, for instance, we do the same, I certainly would act and react the same way.

So would I act the same way, Walter. I guess though that makes us the same...at the same times it makes us different.

Quote:

But either no-one stole documents proving that or we don't do it or the US-president doesn't mind that we do it or ...

Great...I am happy it is that way with you. I wish it had remained that way with us.

Quote:

I mean, the USA doesn't trust us.

As a nation (not necessarily as an individual)...trust no one.

Quote:

They might have found something. But keep quiet about it, even when documents come to the light showing their attitude towards allies.
That is of course very honourable!

Well...allies are allies as long as they are allies. Sometimes your best allies today were your worst enemies just a short time ago...and may be your enemies a short time into the future.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Frank can't be a moron. He champions;

"To acknowledge what you do not know, is a display of strength. To pretend you know what you truly don't, is a display of weakness."

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@Frank Apisa,

The moron goes on with his "fair trial" meme despite his being woefully ignorant of how that is not possible in the us.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Well...allies are allies as long as they are allies. Sometimes your best allies today were your worst enemies just a short time ago...and may be your enemies a short time into the future.

I suppose then that those dark parts of our history will be the reason for the disturbed connection between Germany and the USA for the next years, decades and centuries.

It certainly explains why we our government and the chancellor(s) are thought to be receptive to terrorism and a danger for the security of US-citizens.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Well...allies are allies as long as they are allies. Sometimes your best allies today were your worst enemies just a short time ago...and may be your enemies a short time into the future.

I suppose then that those dark parts of our history will be the reason for the disturbed connection between Germany and the USA for the next years, decades and centuries.

Well...Germany certainly had problems with the rest of Europe during the last century, Walter...and I suppose that left some residual fears with the Europeans.

I don't actually see that here in America.

Long after World War II broke out...there still were many German sympathizing organizations in operation here.

And now...you are indeed considered one of our strongest allies.

(Implications to be consider in my response to the next part of your message.)

Quote:

It certainly explains why we our government and the chancellor(s) are thought to be receptive to terrorism and a danger for the security of US-citizens.

Walter...you can do better than that!

We spy...you spy...all god;s chillen do spyin'!

I would be absolutely amazed if ANY governmental official of our country actually thought the state of Germany or any Chancellor thereof...IS RECEPTIVE to terrorism against the US...or is a particular danger to the security of the US.

But we spy. Apparently there are those who think it prudent to make sure.

Whatever motivates the intelligence community to do what it does...we have elected officials in this country...and a system of judiciary...to deal with it. We Americans can change the leadership of our country in periodic election cycles...and if we come to see the overseers as not doing their jobs...we can change them.

The spying has gone on from the beginning of recorded history...and all the indignation, IN MY OPINION, is being way, way, way overdone.

But keep at it. You have almost no chance of stopping the spying...and if you truly think that allies should not do that...perhaps you ought lobby to cease being an ally of ours.

Tell us to go to hell. Elect a government who pledges to tell us to go to hell.

Maybe that will improve things for you.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Our FBI has said that Snowden acted alone, according to this article:

Quote:

Following Roger’s allegations, on Sunday, a senior FBI official told the New York Times that it was the bureau’s conclusion that Snowden had acted alone.

Other US security officials told Reuters as recently as last week that the United States had no evidence that Snowden had been aided or abetted in any way by outside forces.

source

However, he did reach out to Kucherena right off the bat after having reached Russia. Kucherna happens to be a high profile lawyer with long time Kremlin ties.

Snowden’s Lawyer Comes With High Profile and Kremlin Ties

3 Replies

@revelette2,

The way I see it, Snowden chose the right attorney to represent him. He's now safe from being taken to the US to be charged with a crime without legal representation since Obama can classify him as a terrorist. He can be sent to Gitmo and tortured.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

The moron goes on with his "fair trial" meme despite his being woefully ignorant of how that is not possible in the us.

It is not possible anywhere. The fact of having a trial introduces unfairness because the law represents the interests of the power elite.

Apisa has no choice but to deem Stalin's and Hitler's trials fair.

Manning's trial was unfair because the stresses his particular personality was under to act as he did were not brought out and not understood by those who had never experienced them. The pre-trial procedures were, in principle, if not of quite the same severity, as those employed by Calvin prior to the "fair" trial of Michael Servetus.

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@cicerone imposter,

Obama has not charged Snowden with terrorism, but rather espionage.

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@revelette2,

Espionage can be the cause of being labeled a terrorist.

Do you know of any attorney who can defend Snowden if and when Obama calls Snowden a terrorist?

1 Reply

@revelette2,

You never responded to the info that put to rest another canard about the USA, Rev.

Why might that be?

The USA is not a generous nation.

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@revelette2,

Rev: Obama has not charged Snowden with terrorism, but rather espionage.

Of course that's complete nonsense. He is a whistle blower who has illustrated that the USA is a criminal organization. Now the criminal organization wants to try the patriot. Just how fucked up is that.

And this in the land of the free?

Absolutely kafkaesque!!!!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
It certainly explains why we our government and the chancellor(s) are thought to be receptive to terrorism and a danger for the security of US-citizens.

Walter...you can do better than that!

We spy...you spy...all god;s chillen do spyin'!

I would be absolutely amazed if ANY governmental official of our country actually thought the state of Germany or any Chancellor thereof...IS RECEPTIVE to terrorism against the US...or is a particular danger to the security of the US.

Well, Frank, you wrote numerous times here on this thread that the NSA keeps the USA safe and citizens secure.
And most if not all US-politicians said they same ... and that the program is helpful against terrorism, keeps citizens secure ... did I say that already? ... has nothing to do with economic espionage ...

We are talking here about the NSA and not the CIA,isn't it?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

We spy...you spy...all god;s chillen do spyin'!

Not on themselves without cause and supported by their own work they don't and when it is unconstitutional to boot.

Spying on other countries is a red herring because few Americans would bat an eyelid at it. I very much doubt Eddie would have any worries about that. It's what Copeland called the Game of Nations. Played out over our heads except now its up our arses. And including the arses of the NSA bureau and associated structures as they battle it out internally over the juiciest rungs of the ladder. We all know what office politics is like.

This case involves a nation turning on itself. Officially.

Food stamps cut by Dems!! A dozen conservation projects cancelled. Who ******* cares whether Apisa thinks Eddie should get a fair trial. Able 2 Know is not about what Apisa thinks and blurts out like the speaking clock at every opportunity. Doing that is an attempt to prevent the debate about Eddie being a dummy going forward.

The Utah complex reminded me of Burroughs' prediction in Naked Lunch.

I would have took the monthly cheque, and sheepishly grinning, spied on you all to **** while hoping some silly dummy didn't go getting an itsy-bitsy soul-search going after seeing a particularly wonderful version of The Star Spangled Banner performed which brought back happy memories of more certain times. I mean the sort of soul search which leaves all the bed clothes in a tangle. As when a lover jumps ship.

I imagine Apisa had had a fair trial explained to him in Civics lessons.

3 Replies

Snowdon is a dummy

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