Snowdon is a dummy

@hawkeye10,

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there is no such verdict of innocent in our system. You also seem to be confused about what due process is....it includes prosecutorial discretion to not charge citizens for crimes committed if the best interests of the collective are best served by not involving the courts

Boy, wouldn't that confuse an already confusing judicial system.

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@revelette2,

HA....till I got to the end I thought you were nagging me about confusing a already confused frank. Laughing

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
He is, however, a fugitive from justice at the moment..
The US government has lost all rights to be the arbiter of justice in my opinion. Snowden is a fugitive from the corrupt and abusive US government...he is a freedom fighter. Going after Snowden is a dumb as is the US policy of assassination by drone, short term goals accomplished at the cost of squandering the right to rule.

You do not get to decide what rights the US government retains or loses, Hawk. I am an American citizen...and I do not consider my government to be corrupt or abusive.

I suggest that Snowden is far from being a freedom fighter...and he MOST CERTAINLY is a fugitive.

Going after Snowden is not only NOT dumb...it is damn near the only reasonable thing the US can do in this situation.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
And I hope he is returned to the US soon so he can clear his good name in a fair trial.

there is no such verdict of innocent in our system. You also seem to be confused about what due process is....

I never said there would be a verdict of "innocent."

In this country people are presumed INNOCENT until proved guilty in a trial. If he is not found guilty...he is PRESUMED to be innocent...whether he is actually innocent or not.

In any case, the charge is that he stole classified documents and released them to unauthorized parties.

If he did not do that...he is innocent. If he did...he is anything but innocent.

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...it includes prosecutorial discretion to not charge citizens for crimes committed if the best interests of the collective are best served by not involving the courts.

I am not a lawyer, so I do not know that to be so.

Would you mind sharing the extent of your legal training so I can assess whether or not to depend on what you are asserting?

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@Frank Apisa,

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Going after Snowden is not only NOT dumb...it is damn near the only reasonable thing the US can do in this situation.

protecting the rights of the American people trumps protecting the American Government. These boys need to show that they have learned this lesson, and a part of their atonement for their wrong doing has to be agreeing that Snowden not be charged. Once we found out the they were running these programs on secret courts and secret laws they lost the right to charge Snowden for telling us.

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@hawkeye10,

The NYT's does not go as far as I do, but my logic follows theirs

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html?_r=0

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Going after Snowden is not only NOT dumb...it is damn near the only reasonable thing the US can do in this situation.
protecting the rights of the American people trumps protecting the American Government.

We are the government, Hawk.

Protecting the American people means protecting its government.

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These boys need to show that they have learned this lesson, and a part of their atonement for their wrong doing has to be agreeing that Snowden not be charged.

He has already been charged.

I suspect the majority of Americans feel Snowden MUST be tried.

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Once we found out the they were running these programs on secret courts and secret laws they lost the right to charge Snowden for telling us.

No they haven't.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

The NYT's does not go as far as I do, but my logic follows theirs

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html?_r=0

I am sure you regularly subscribe to the editorial sentiments of the New York Times, right Hawk?

In any case...what the New York Times thinks will not be the determinant. Snowden has been charged with serious crimes. If he ever comes back to this country, he will almost certainly be tried on those charges...and I strongly support the right and obligation of the government to do so.

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Quote:

The Espionage Act is for spies like Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen, who sold secrets to enemies for profit. But thanks to vague and overbroad language, the law has criminalized a wide range of activities that are central to the news-reporting process and bear little or no resemblance to classic espionage. There are a dozen other criminal laws that could be applied to people accused of mishandling classified information. The government's choice of the Espionage Act says more about its punitive powers than it does about the national-security interests the law was created to protect.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303595404579318884005698684

Vague law which is used to get people that the government wants to get is abuse of the citizens at the hands of the state by way of a perverted justice system. This problem rampant and we need to get around to fixing it.

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@Frank Apisa,

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I am sure you regularly subscribe to the editorial sentiments of the New York Times, right Hawk?

I'll walk with anyone who happens to be going my way, I am not hung up on my prejudice about who they are, nor am I interested in demanding that they always go the way I do.

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and I strongly support the right and obligation of the government to do so.

Did you also feel obligated to take a swing at everyone who called you names on the schoolyard?

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@hawkeye10,

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This problem rampant and we need to get around to fixing it.

It is too late for that hawk. Science means totalitarianism in the modern context. There's no going back, as Bob has said. "We are going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn."

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
The Espionage Act is for spies like Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen, who sold secrets to enemies for profit. But thanks to vague and overbroad language, the law has criminalized a wide range of activities that are central to the news-reporting process and bear little or no resemblance to classic espionage. There are a dozen other criminal laws that could be applied to people accused of mishandling classified information. The government's choice of the Espionage Act says more about its punitive powers than it does about the national-security interests the law was created to protect.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303595404579318884005698684

Vague law which is used to get people that the government wants to get is abuse of the citizens at the hands of the state by way of a perverted justice system.

I understand you feel that way...and that is your right.

I disagree with you strongly...and that is my right.

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This problem rampant and we need to get around to fixing it.

Once again...you have a right to think that.

I disagree.

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@spendius,

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"We are going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn."

that is what I figure will happen with our broken economic system. But I still have hopes that government can be fixed before we all fry.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I am sure you regularly subscribe to the editorial sentiments of the New York Times, right Hawk?

I'll walk with anyone who happens to be going my way, I am not hung up on my prejudice about who they are, nor am I interested in demanding that they always go the way I do. [/[quote]quote]

I will translate that as a NO.

Quote:

Quote:
and I strongly support the right and obligation of the government to do so.
Did you also feel obligated to take a swing at everyone who called you names on the schoolyard?

Nope.

Did you?

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
"We are going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn."
that is what I figure will happen with our broken economic system.

Nothing wrong with "hope", Hawk...I have plenty myself.

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But I still have hopes that government can be fixed before we all fry.

It is my opinion that "the government" does not need fixing as much as "the citizenry."

Citizens have got to agree to be governed. Many of the citizens of the US...many of the most vocal...have decided that they WILL NOT be governed. We have, in effect, an ungovernable people.

The notion that government is the thing that needs fixing...is part of the problem...not part of the solution.

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@Frank Apisa,

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The notion that government is the thing that needs fixing...is part of the problem...not part of the solution.

for a generation our opinion has mostly been that government can do what ever it wants so long as it does not ask anything of us and the checks continue to show up in the mailbox. This needs to change. This will require us to change.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
The notion that government is the thing that needs fixing...is part of the problem...not part of the solution.

for a generation our opinion has mostly been that government can do what ever it wants so long as it does not ask anything of us and the checks continue to show up in the mailbox. This needs to change. This will require us to change.

I am getting surer and surer that you are not a fan of the New York Times editorial page.

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@hawkeye10,

The people at the NYT are not ready to give up what they have to fix it. They are part of the problem.

It would astonish me if there is no off-screen networking between the NYT and the NSA.

You, hawk, might not be interested in what 300 odd million Americans are doing but the NYT definitely is. The bourgeois revolution is not half over with yet.

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@spendius,

And i would be very surprised if true investigative journalists would for one second consider that mass spying could be useful to their work. Don't collect more information than you can analyze is rule No 1 in that business. The NSA is a bunch of fools who would collect anything and think later, but IMO the NYT knows better.

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@Olivier5,

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The NSA is a bunch of fools who would collect anything and think later, but IMO the NYT knows better.

That may have some truth in it but the staff in both institutions have spent their lives in more or less the same socialisation process.

That is the point of the bourgeois revolution's demand that more people from the lower classes be admitted into the seats of the Higher Learning.

2 Replies

Snowdon is a dummy

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