42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 07:31 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:


Every country has that law. England has one that is very strongly enforced.


Please don't turn this into some sort of UK vs UK debate. You're not BillRM, let's stick to the point.


The bottom line is that you are asking the United States to remove...or weaken its laws against disclosure of classified documents.

That is not going to happen.

And since you apparently live in England...I thought it prudent to mention the Official Secrets Act...which binds you folk a great deal more intrusively than ours binds us.



Quote:
Quote:

The question is not "did he break the law" in our country, Izzy...the question is can the prosecution prove to the satisfaction of a jury of his peer that he did.



And they will because the evidence is overwhelming. There is no provision for the greater good, which is why the law is deficient.


If you are so certain of that...he deserves punishment. We cannot have individuals deciding what classified documents can be leaked at a whim. And I doubt the people in the UK would allow that either.

Fine...in your mind, the guy did an heroic thing...put his life on the line in order to share this information. But there is a price to be paid...and that price is to be subjected to a trial by peers.

That is what I am asking for.

(More to come on a related subject in a separate new thread.)

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 07:32 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Please explain to me why you think laws requiring classified document not to be stolen...are unjust?


That is kind of a simple concept as when government lawbreakers misused their power to classified information for the purpose of hiding their misdeeds from the american people just to start with.


That does not make the law "unjust", Bill.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 07:34 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
That is fine with me.

And it is fine with me too. But I suspect that deep down, the last thing you want is for Obama and co to get a fair trial...


Fine...if that is what you think...that is what you think.

I don't think Obama will ever be charged with any crimes.

But Edward Snowden has been...and I champion his right to a fair trial so he can defend himself from those charges.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 07:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But Edward Snowden has been...and I champion his right to a fair trial so he can defend himself from those charges.

And I champion the right of Obama, Biden and co to be charged, and to defend themselves in a fair trial where they could try and clear their names from the stench of tyranny that is now engulfing them.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 07:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
I think whistleblowing legislation is needed as much in the UK as USA.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 07:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
If you are so certain of that...he deserves punishment.


No, because the law is deficient. Now we're going round in circles.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 08:01 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And since you apparently live in England...I thought it prudent to mention the Official Secrets Act...which binds you folk a great deal more intrusively than ours binds us.


What is the evidence to support that assertion? Or belief?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 08:09 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
But Edward Snowden has been...and I champion his right to a fair trial so he can defend himself from those charges.

And I champion the right of Obama, Biden and co to be charged, and to defend themselves in a fair trial where they could try and clear their names from the stench of tyranny that is now engulfing them.


Good luck with that!

I hope you stop by to read a new thread I started which covers some of this "stench of tyranny" nonsense.

http://able2know.org/topic/231441-1
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 08:10 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I think whistleblowing legislation is needed as much in the UK as USA.


I hope you stop by also, Izzy.

http://able2know.org/topic/231441-1
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 08:19 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
And I champion the right of Obama, Biden and co to be charged, and to defend themselves in a fair trial where they could try and clear their names from the stench of tyranny that is now engulfing them.


I would love to see them appear before the World Court on this matter.

ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 08:23 am
@izzythepush,
Excellent post.

I don't expect the person you addressed it to be able to understand it in full, but other readers - now and in the future - will.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 08:38 am
@ehBeth,
Thank you Beth.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 09:07 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Thank you Beth.


She wasn't really complimenting you, Izzy. She was just taking a shot at me in her usual cowardly way.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 09:26 am
@Frank Apisa,
Sometimes Frank it's not all about you.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 09:37 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Sometimes Frank it's not all about you.


Sometimes it is not.

Often it is not.

Most of the time it is not.

I suspect that last post of Beth's was.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 09:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Not cowardly at all.

I am tired of your condescending posts addressed toward Walter, Izzy ... anyone who presents new information or opposing points of view in political/religion/philosophy etc threads.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with those other points of view or that I might not have arguments of my own with the information presented. I am saying that while the "new" Frank may be a calmer, happier man, his posts are increasingly unpleasant to read. The "old" shouting version of Frank seemed more honest.

I told you this on a couple of threads some time ago (a year ago? two years ago?) and stopped addressing you directly for the most part.

If I see other posters attempting to assist anyone in understanding arguments/information/positions/debate points, I will give them credit for their efforts. Sometimes I will tell them and since I'm not really a pm user, I will tell them publicly.

I give Walter in particular great credit for his ability to respond to people as civilly as he does in spite of efforts to provoke him. I don't have Walter's strength in this area.

I am sure you understand my position while you disagree with it in its entirety.

ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 09:42 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

Sometimes Frank it's not all about you.

I suspect that last post of Beth's was.


I was giving IzzyTP credit.

That's about IzzyTP.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 09:52 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Not cowardly at all.


Well the cowardly part is a matter of individual opinion...and I hold to mine.

Quote:
I am tired of your condescending posts addressed toward Walter, Izzy ... anyone who presents new information or opposing points of view in political/religion/philosophy etc threads.


Sorry if you think I am being condescending toward Walter or Izzy. I have a great deal of respect for both...and I certain intend no disrespect or condescension...no matter what you are "tired of."

Quote:
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with those other points of view or that I might not have arguments of my own with the information presented. I am saying that while the "new" Frank may be a calmer, happier man, his posts are increasingly unpleasant to read. The "old" shouting version of Frank seemed more honest.


If you find my posts unpleasant to read...stop reading them. I am not aiming at being unpleasant...I am trying to present my opinions forcefully...as most people in A2K do. If heat bothers you (universal "you")...A2K is not the place to be!

Quote:

I told you this on a couple of threads some time ago (a year ago? two years ago?) and stopped addressing you directly for the most part.

If I see other posters attempting to assist you in understanding arguments/information/positions/debate points, I will give them credit for their efforts. Sometimes I will tell them and since I'm not really a pm user, I will tell them publicly.


Fine. So???

I had already responded to Izzy's post...and I did so respectfully.

And quite honestly, your post DID seem to me to be more a shot at me than truly a congratulations of Izzy.

Quote:
I give Walter in particular great credit for his ability to respond to you as civilly as he does in spite of your efforts to provoke him. I don't have Walter's strength in this area.


I'd love to hear Walter's take on this...because I think I respond to Walter in a civil...at times friendly...way. If Walter takes offense to the way I address him...or respond to him...I would love for him to say so. He has always been respectful t0 me...and I mean to be so to him. That same thing goes for Izzy.

Quote:
I am sure you understand my position while you disagree with it in its entirety.


I do understand your position, Beth...and I DO NOT disagree with it in its entirety. I think, for instance, the way you phrased that first sentence was masterful...without the first person personal pronoun.

I use that often myself...although obviously not in this sentence.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 10:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Good luck with that!

Thanks! And good luck with your Snowden trial... :-)

Quote:
I hope you stop by to read a new thread I started which covers some of this "stench of tyranny" nonsense.

And I hope you stop writing nonsense...
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 15 Jan, 2014 10:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
The thing is Frank, the phrase 'Over here in America,' is incredibly condescending. There are some posters on A2K who seek to wrap themselves in the American flag at every opportunity, to cast those of us who do not have American citizenship as being opposed to American values. Those who support gun ownership call us serfs, and try to point out our lack of 'freedom' all the time. As if we'd all want to own AK47s once we really understood what freedom really was.

There are those who seem to think that your constitution, bill of rights, various amendments, separation of church and state, et al give you a right to wag your finger and lecture us as if we're a bunch of savages living in some sort of feudal autocracy.

What you don't realise is that most of us are very much aware of how you go about things. Your global dominance of television means that around 50% of what's shown on our channels is American. Hardly a day goes by when we don't see something American. Last night I watched two episodes of South Park, one of which was all about Snowden, with Butters taking people to the DMV to confess their sins. When was the last time you saw something that was British, and up to date? Monty Python, Benny Hill and Keeping Up Appearances don't count.

There are considerably more Americans ignorant of how we go about things in Europe than the other way round. I'm spoken to many posters, quite aware and informed in other matters, who don't know the difference between Britain, England and the UK.

And my criticism of the treatment of Snowden is not confined to America. Britain is as guilty as America, and if it were an MI5 agent who had leaked the documents and was avoiding trial in the UK my comments would not be any different.
 

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