Snowdon is a dummy

@wandeljw,

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You make a good point, but propaganda is too strong a term. The worst thing anyone can do is to rely only on one source. To get a true understanding of a particular issue, you need to read a variety of sources and try to learn something from each of the different perspectives. No single source has a monopoly on knowledge.

Propaganda perfectly describes what the American public receives from their governments and the puppet news media, JW. Sure there's a degree of truth allowed, it gives the appearance of openness, which is vital to maintaining the charade.

And yes, some Americans go beyond the smokescreen. If they didn't/hadn't, we wouldn't know today that the US has never been a force for good, despite the propaganda leading an overwhelming number of Americans believing that is the case. The propaganda has also been pretty effective in other countries.

It's even highly effective on those who actually know the truth and stay silent, isn't it, JW?

MIT talks about America's "faults", though she is hardly the only one. Frank Apisa might be the master and I believe that you have engaged in this. This is a common them, that the US has made some mistakes, but their heart has always been in the right place.

Vicious war crimes, ongoing and relentless terrorism are not faults. The actions of the US have been as vicious as any that the Nazis, Japanese, Italians, etc have engaged in. The difference is that the US has been doing these things for over a century, all the while making the phoniest of pretenses that they weren't.

To hide a scam as huge as this, you have to see just how effective the propaganda has been.

Even with all the war crimes/the incredible level of terrorism committed by the US on an ongoing basis, how often do you hear any serious discussion of this?

Even with all the war crimes/the incredible level of terrorism committed by the US on an ongoing basis, the US has often pushed for action against others for actions that the US is the leader at.

You hear, you've heard the plus 50 years of propaganda against Cuba - it's relentless - and how much have you heard of the terrorist actions by the US against Cuba?

Noam Chomsky: The phrase 'war on terrorism' should always be used in quotes, cause there can't possibly be a war on terrorism, it's impossible. The reason is it's led by one of the worst terrorist states in the world, in fact it's led by the only state in the world which has been condemned by the highest international authorities for international terrorism, namely the World Court and Security Council, except that the US vetoed the resolution.

Can you even tell us what this was about, without researching? How many Americans could? How many people in the world know this? Do you think that a majority know about this?

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@cicerone imposter,

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That seems to be a common problem in the US where people who watch FOX News tend to repeat the lies they tell as "news." They don't have a clue as to truth or facts. Many still believe Obama is a Kenyan and Muslim.

The problem goes much much deeper than Fox, CI.

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The Kellogg–Briand Pact (or Pact of Paris, officially General Treaty for Renunciation of War as an Instrument of National Policy[1]) was a 1928 international agreement in which signatory states promised not to use war to resolve "disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them".[2] Parties failing to abide by this promise "should be denied the benefits furnished by this treaty".

It was signed by Germany, France and the United States on August 27, 1928, and by most other nations soon after. Sponsored by France and the U.S., the Pact renounced the use of war and called for the peaceful settlement of disputes. Similar provisions were incorporated into the UN Charter and other treaties and it became a stepping stone to a more activist American policy.[3] It is named after its authors: United States Secretary of State Frank B. Kellogg and French foreign minister Aristide Briand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellogg%E2%80%93Briand_Pact

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@JPB,

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We concurred that he had much to say that was on point, but we both wished it could be delivered with less vitriol.

Excuse me, too, if I've already asked, JPB, but if that was the consensus you and Dys reached, where were you two?

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@JPB,

You did, JPB. You have. Excuse me for making this point but I feel I have to.

Why then do you allow Brandon to continue with his fantasies, with his lies, with describing untruths that do nothing but make the USA look worse than it is? How will it ever end if these lies aren't addressed each and every time they are advanced?

Not only is the US propaganda mill infinitely larger than the protestations of the few honest folk, it has had a gigantic head start.

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@JTT,

You wrote,

Quote:

Why then do you allow Brandon to continue with his fantasies, with his lies, with describing untruths that do nothing but make the USA look worse than it is?

ROFLMAO

The number one critic of the US speaking! What a ******* dork.

1 Reply

@JTT,

You seem to be of the opinion that discussions on A2K matter or that they will somehow have some influence on how Americans see themselves in the world. There are, what... 10, maybe 12 people who read these threads? All of them already know my position on US foreign policy (we need a new one!), and either agree with me on point (as they do you), or they don't. Your screeds have resulted in many of those dozen folks ignoring you. Anyone left here (there are fewer and fewer regulars here all the time) is either already ignoring you (and me, when it comes to American foreign policy), agrees with you/me, or doesn't read these threads.

You stated recently that you'd bet that none of the people I have regular contact with openly debate or discuss US foreign policy. I said you'd lose that bet. My discussions tend to be elsewhere, primarily because I think that discussions of this type are irrelevant here. There used to be a sizable group of folks here who were willing to debate subject of political and/or international interest. Most of those people have left.

I'm seldom here myself. This particular topic is one of interest to me so I stopped by to see if there was any discussion that hadn't been completely taken over by the Hawkeye/BillRM/Firefly vacuum. And, here we are. Having a discussion that includes me telling Brandon that I think his worldview is tainted by the realities of growing up in the US during the Cold War.

"Allow Brandon to continue"? Really? I have no interest in stopping him. I have no influence whatsoever over who posts here and what they say. I disagree with Brandon. He knows that. I disagree with Frank, too. He knows that as well.

There's another answer to your previous question re "when did it start" for me to begin questioning US foreign policy. For me it started when I did an in-depth inquiry into the proxy wars of the Cold War era. As I studied, I kept hearing the news tapes of OBL's manifesto saying how we had no idea what it feels like to have bombs going off and buildings falling down around us. We've been "at war" for much of my life, but other than caskets that come back from other lands we have completely insulated ourselves from the ravages of war.

I've said this all before. The 10-12 people who will read this post have seen me say it here before. Saying it two, or ten or a hundred times won't influence the people who disagree with me and what's the point of preaching to the choir?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Now the English press (here quoting from The Independent) reports about this Spiegel-interview as well:

The Independent wrote:

The fugitive US whistleblower Edward Snowden alleged yesterday that the National Security Agency was “in bed together” with German intelligence despite claims by politicians in Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition that they were shocked by the extent of American spying in Germany.

In an interview with Der Spiegel , Snowden claimed that the NSA provided German intelligence, with analysis tools to help the organisation monitor data flowing through Germany. “The NSA people are in bed together with the Germans,"” he told the magazine.

He added that the NSA’s foreign affairs directorate, which is responsible for relations with other countries, had set up a system whereby political leaders “could be insulated” from the backlash if spying became public and helped to play down how grievously they were “violating global privacy.”

Snowden also claimed to shed further light on the extent of British spying activities saying that the UK’s GCHQ was the only organisation which operated a so-called “full take” system of information monitoring which stored all data crossing its path for a total of 30 days.

The allegations seemed certain to cause further shock waves in Germany, where the issue of NSA spying is fast turning into a thorny political campaign issue in the run up to the September general election.

German MPs have expressed outrage at the extent of British and American spying on German internet and phone traffic and NSA spying on European Union offices. Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Interior Minister is scheduled to fly to Washington this week to obtain an “explanation” from the US authorities.

Ms Merkel has herself complained that the extent of US and British spying is reminiscent of the Cold War and demanded that it be brought under control. However it is well known that German intelligence has been able to prevent planned terror attacks on German soil with the help of NSA intelligence.

Snowden is believed to be still holed up in the transit area of Moscow’s Sheremetyevo airport. He has been trying to find a country to give him sanctuary since arriving there from Hong Kong on June 23. However his Russian hosts appear to be becoming irked by his continued presence.

On Sunday Alexei Pushkov, an influential Russian MP who often speaks for the Kremlin said he would encourage Snowden to accept Venezuela’s recent offer of asylum, saying it was probably his “last chance”.

1 Reply

@Mame,

I already knew the substance, and this screamer is probably not attracting unknowledgeable posters to look at the history. If a reader does, it will likely be in spite of the spew, and from the person's own curiosity.

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@RABEL222,

Really? How is that possible? Wink

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter, This is what you wrote a few pages back.

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@cicerone imposter,
Eh, no. I don't think that I'm confused.
I'm talking about the informations of Snowden as well.

I accept that you don't bother what the NSA does to non-US citizen.
But I do.

But, as you have shown, the NSA is in bed with German intelligence.

Your concern seems out of place.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

But, as you have shown, the NSA is in bed with German intelligence.

Your concern seems out of place.

Eh, exactly why?

Snowden is asked in that interview in Der Spiegel ...

... if German agencies or official sides are mixed up with this spying systems. Snowden confirms this and goes on, "We [the US agencies] warn them, if someone, whom we want to get, uses one of their airport - they hand him over to us. ... They don't ask us from where we've got our informations, and we don't ask questions either. Thus, they can safeguard the political leaders against a backlash if it emerges, how massive the private sphere is disregarded."

I think, the Independent's headline " NSA is in bed with German intelligence" just sidetracks a bit from what is said in that interview about the UK's secret services.

I've never doubted that the German BND gets information from the NSA ... and personally, I know by experience (though this knowledge is 40 years old) that the military secret service did some jobs for the NSA as well.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

You said you're concerned about what the NSA does with non-US citizens, but if the German intelligence is "in bed with the NSA," it seems what you wish for and what the government of Germany does is in conflict.

It seems you have a bone to pick with your own government rather than the NSA.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

No, I don't think so.
That the German secret service(s) get some (sic!) data back out of the billions the US (and obviously, according to this interview, the British) services collect, that doesn't change my opinion about it.

And again: the line "in bed with the NSA" isn't used by Snowden in all the pages published. And what is said about the relation between Germany and the NSA is just that what I've copied/pasted ... 6 pages interview altogether.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Here's an article on German intelligence agencies and what they do.

You tell me if they are living under the laws of Germany - and your personal expectations about internal and external coordination of intelligence information?

Quote:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3403300336.html

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@cicerone imposter,

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ROFLMAO

But never actually addressing the facts, the historical record, the questions asked.

Thomas asked you,

"I can't help wondering: We are talking about the US government here --- the same government that ruined your childhood by locking you up in a concentration camp for no good reason. The only bad reason it had was your Japanese descent. How can you be so complacent about this government's current abuses of power? "

and you went off on a Brandon/Okie/H20man/FrankA diversion that was reminiscent of Frank Apisa's tangents/diversions.

Then Thomas asked you,

"And why do you sneer at people, however colorful and flawed, who expose its abuses?"

and you completely avoided it, like you are doing here with my question.

Why? You chastise others, alleging they do the same things.

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@JPB,

You've made excellent points, JPB. Much to ponder. Thank you for taking time to answer my query.

Quote:

Saying it two, or ten or a hundred times won't influence the people who disagree with me and what's the point of preaching to the choir?

It has certainly worked the other way, hasn't it, even when there is nothing at all to support the lies you've discovered.

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@izzythepush,

I am not trying to justify anything. I am pointing out that you are another JTT whose rant is that the US of A is the great Satan. My country on the other hand is without blame for the 300 years of constructive governance that made them free. More Bull ****. If your going to be truthful be completely so. Admit that England was a dictatorship of foreign countries for 300 years for their (Englands) business interests.

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@JTT,

It's because I answered the question, but you didn't like my answer.

I said "it was a failure of government." You missed that. Not my problem.

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@JPB,

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There are, what... 10, maybe 12 people who read these threads?

Damn!! I thought when I post my words of wisdom I was addressing thousands.

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@RABEL222,

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I am pointing out that you are another JTT whose rant is that the US of A is the great Satan.

Not at all, never has been, Rable. That's what folks like you want to believe and want others to believe because that allows you an out, an escape in that you don't have to then address reality.

The US certainly qualifies as one of the top agents of Satan. And that's more than enough to justify discussing the numerous lies that have been spread over the years suggesting that the US has been the opposite of that, a force for good, a savior of the world's oppressed.

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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