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Snowdon is a dummy

Forums: Politics, Snowden, Asylum, Nsa, Snowdon
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BillRM
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
WE, for the most part, ci, run our government. We are the government.


An how does that work when the government keep secrets concerning what they are doing and even lied to the congress concerning what they are doing?

We as the people have little to no control of the secrets actions of an out of control government.

From the polls we the people are very unhappy with this massive spying when it became known.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
David is an embarrassment to himself! Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You,
Quote:
Well...since WE are the government...it is OUR fault.


You may believe what you wish about our government's actions, but I do not approve of many things they do in my name. I won't bother listing those out for you, but the Iraq war is one of the major ones that happened with our president before Obama. I also disagree with many actions Obama has taken during his presidency.


I think we both have plenty to disagree with decisions that have been made over the years by presidents and legislators of both parties, ci. I don't fault you for that...and hope you do not fault me.

On the issue being discussed here...we are on different side.

No government can ever satisfy ALL the people ALL the time...and most of the time, some of the people are going to be hugely dissatisfied while some of the people are going to be hugely pleased.

We've become a people who are polar on so many things...it is virtually impossible for any president to make a decision that pleases lots of people...without incurring the wrath of many of the others.

Current issue is that way.

I think what Snowden did...NO MATTER WHAT...was wrong and ultimately detrimental to the interests of the US.

You apparently disagree.

We have to agree to disagree.
JPB
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I HAVE INDICATED ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND RESPECT for the take of others on this issue. That kind of thing has not been returned by anyone


That's not entirely true. I have a post back on page… single digits… of this thread where I acknowledge that the people of NYC and surrounds have a unique perspective on this subject. I don't agree with the "We'll show 'em who's boss" response this country gave after 911, but I understand and accept that that's easy for me to say.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:44 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
WE, for the most part, ci, run our government. We are the government.


An how does that work when the government keep secrets concerning what they are doing and even lied to the congress concerning what they are doing?


That is like asking "how does it work if the congressmen wear ties to work...and the congresswomen come in dresses?"

It happens, Bill. Get over it.

Quote:
We as the people have little to no control of the secrets actions of an out of control government.


In my opinion, our government is not out of control. The people of this country, in my opinion, are out of control. They are refusing to be governed.

Quote:
From the polls we the people are very unhappy with this massive spying when it became known.


And even more appear to think most of it was necessary...and are supporting the government.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
That's not the issue; the issue is the government breaking the laws of this country called the "Constitution." They have sworn to defend it, and it was revealed that they lied and failed. We have a right to know when our government breaks laws; citizens are held at a higher degree of living within the laws of our country - or are charged with a crime and put into prison and/or jail. They deserve the same.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:45 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Quote:
I HAVE INDICATED ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND RESPECT for the take of others on this issue. That kind of thing has not been returned by anyone


That's not entirely true. I have a post back on page… single digits… of this thread where I acknowledge that the people of NYC and surrounds have a unique perspective on this subject. I don't agree with the "We'll show 'em who's boss" response this country gave after 911, but I understand and accept that that's easy for me to say.



It certainly was not addressed to me, JPB...and all I was talking about was that I have not seen the flexibility that others seem to be demanding of me...while I am showing some of that flexibility.
BillRM
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:52 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In my opinion, our government is not out of control. The people of this country, in my opinion, are out of control. They are refusing to be governed.


Yes, we have all figure out by now that you would be happier living in a police state.

Quote:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

George Washington



Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:55 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
In my opinion, our government is not out of control. The people of this country, in my opinion, are out of control. They are refusing to be governed.


Yes, we have all figure out by now that you would be happier living in a police state.

Quote:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.


George Washington


YOU are out of control, Bill.

You ought to work on that.



JPB
 
  1  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Consider yourself acknowledged. I get it. Those who had to dig out from the dust have a unique perspective on the realities of war than those of us who didn't. Where we differ, I think, is where we need to go in order to prevent more attacks. Even Senator King (R-NY), who neither you nor MIT would normally claim a connection, has an NYC perspective that none of the rest of us can truly relate to. That's not to say that you NYCers are right and those of us who disagree with you are wrong, but I Do acknowledge a perspective that's influenced by falling buildings.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 03:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
He also said,
Quote:
The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 04:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

He also said,
Quote:
The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.



As you know, ci, I am hardly the kind of guy who "gives in" on all occasions...and I do not do that with our government either. I have challenged government on several levels...local, county, state, and federal.

But on this one, I think letting the intelligence community (and their congressional overseers) do the thinking is the proper course. I understand that decent, well-intentioned, intelligent people can disagree with me markedly.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 04:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Your question has a simple response: No spying, no disclosure of spying. If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime. That a witness got you in jail does not mean the witness is guilty... You're like a mafia boss would want to off an inconvenient witness.
JPB
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 05:06 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Since when?

Since We weren't told about how the gov't was interpreting the Patriot Act and it's various subsections, and since We were told when those who were paying attention asked that it was none of our business (aka, it's a secret), and since those of us who are asking are asking that very question, "Who, exactly, IS the government?", what fault, exactly, are you claiming belongs to "Us"?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 05:12 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime. That a witness got you in jail does not mean the witness is guilty... You're like a mafia boss would want to off an inconvenient witness.

There was no crime or wrongdoing in the NSA's spying on terrorists and foreign governments.

The only crime here was Snowden compromising vital US intelligence secrets.



That said, I've heard people on TV discussing whether Snowden should be offered a deal in exchange for not exposing any more secrets.

I propose that the following deal be offered to Snowden:

If no further secrets are revealed, then Snowden will stay in prison for the same length of time as Jonathan Pollard's total time in prison (however long that ends up being).

If more secrets are revealed, then Snowden gets the death penalty.


My proposal is better than Snowden deserves, but it does address people's concern about preventing further damage.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 05:24 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Your question has a simple response: No spying, no disclosure of spying. If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime. That a witness got you in jail does not mean the witness is guilty... You're like a mafia boss would want to off an inconvenient witness.


We weren't talking about who is "guilty", Olivier...we were discussing the "harm Bill speaks of."

The harm comes from the disclosure...not from the spying. If the spying were still secret...the harm Bill speaks of would not exist.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 05:25 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Since when?

Since We weren't told about how the gov't was interpreting the Patriot Act and it's various subsections, and since We were told when those who were paying attention asked that it was none of our business (aka, it's a secret), and since those of us who are asking are asking that very question, "Who, exactly, IS the government?", what fault, exactly, are you claiming belongs to "Us"?



We are the government, JPB.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 05:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
No, Frank, we are not the government. We elect the government representatives. What they do does not always meet our political and/or economic expectations. Those are "givens" in any democracy, but we don't expect them to lie and break the laws based on our Constitution which they swore to uphold.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 05:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The harm comes from doing the spying, for if there was no spying, there would be no report of spying, and no harm.

Similarly, if you cheat on your wife, and she learns about it through, say, the neighbour, the harm to your couple is not done by the neighbour, but by you, as you were quite stupid and reckless thinking that your wife would never know...

Do you have another trivia I can help you with? This is fun.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Mon 23 Dec, 2013 05:50 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
The harm comes from doing the spying, for if there was no spying, there would be no report of spying, and no harm.

No, there was no harm from the spying. The spying was completely legitimate.


Olivier5 wrote:
Similarly, if you cheat on your wife,

Hardly similar. Our spies have not done anything wrong.
 

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