42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I am not writing from Germany, Walter.


So the same type of laws can not be pass in the US or England for some strange reason?

Do you think that NSA would already be blackmailing enough congress men and women to be able to block such laws?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:42 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
I am not writing from Germany, Walter.


So the same type of laws can not be pass in the US or England for some strange reason?

Do you think that NSA would already be blackmailing enough congress men and women to be able to block such laws?


Sure they can.

Pass 'em!
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I think the threat is a hell of a lot greater than just a few terrorists. I think America has managed to anger the Arab world to the point where (MY GUESS) is that a vast majority of young Arabs would love to see all sorts of hell fall on the US. Many appear to be active participants in a very militant form of Jihad against the US...and many are on the edge, waiting to be tipped over.


An as far as the American homeland is concern are they all going to be able to come here to attack us directly? Are they going to be able to killed more then a few hundreds every once in the blue moon?

The population of Arabs/Muslims in the US from all surveys are not going to be joining in mass attacks on the US beyond lone wolves every now and then.

So what is this great danger that we need to give up our freedoms one after another?

Freedoms that we did not give up during the cold war except for some blacklists that most people now view with shame.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I think the intelligence community is targeting what they think has to be targeted.
So - as reported today, Israel's PM, German officials, the German embassy in Ruanda, French industrial companies ....

GCHQ's listening post is near the Cornish seaside town of Bude. And Bude really is a nice place with a wonderful coastline nearby!
izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I think the threat is a hell of a lot greater than just a few terrorists. I think America has managed to anger the Arab world to the point where (MY GUESS) is that a vast majority of young Arabs would love to see all sorts of hell fall on the US. Many appear to be active participants in a very militant form of Jihad against the US...and many are on the edge, waiting to be tipped over.


I would disagree with your phrase 'vast majority,' even 'significant minority' would be overplaying it. Most Moslems, like most people, just want to get on with their lives. There is a certain level of anti-Westernism in the Moslem world, but how much that can be translated into a willingness to carry out terrorist attacks is another matter.

Events in Syria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt are far more likely to engage the Jihadi mindset that anything being carried out by the West. Somalia is probably the most potent training ground for Jihadists than the ME, and Somalis aren't Arabs.

There was a lot of talk about this on the news last night following the guilty verdict of Lee Rigby's murderers. There was a lot of talk about denying hate preachers public spaces and public money while bolstering the vast majority of peaceful law abiding Moslems.

Lee Rigby's killers were converts, so they knew little about Islam before falling under the spell of extremists. Paradoxically, those brought up in Islam are far less likely to espouse Jihadism than those that aren't.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Sure they can.

Pass 'em!


You have not taken note that there is one hell of a blow back and pressures of all kind in mounting on the government to stop this nonsense cold?

That the CEOs that stand for a major section of the economic are having meeting with our President over this matter.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:59 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Sure they can.

Pass 'em!


You have not taken note that there is one hell of a blow back and pressures of all kind in mounting on the government to stop this nonsense cold?

That the CEOs that stand for a major section of the economic are having meeting with our President over this matter.


Pass 'em.

Then we can talk.
JPB
 
  2  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 11:11 am
Quote:
Prime Minister Shinzo Abe secured final passage of a bill granting Japan’s government sweeping powers to declare state secrets, a measure aimed at shoring up defense ties with the U.S. that prompted a public backlash and revolt by the opposition.

The upper house of the Diet gave final approval of the measures in Tokyo late yesterday after opposition parties first forced a no-confidence vote in Abe’s government in the lower house. The wrangling over the bill forced the government to extend the parliamentary session, due to end yesterday, for two more days.

The bill, which forms part of Abe’s broader push to strengthen Japan’s defense policy in the face of China’s military assertiveness, stiffens penalties for bureaucrats who leak secrets and journalists who publish them. It gives government officials the power to define what constitutes a state secret under categories from defense to diplomacy, terrorism and safety threats. Bloomberg
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:23 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Pass 'em.

Then we can talk.


Talk about what?

In any case, the federal government can either stop this silliness or see the economic loss 100s of billions or dollars, if not trillions of dollars as a result and the whole internet from one end to the other become encrypted.

In fact, it is highly likely too late now to stop the internet from "going dark" or convict the world that it is either safe or wise to trust any US company concerning hardware or software for that matter.

I know I would never trust any VPN service that is base in the US or England and that is 70 dollars a year leaving the US and you can multiply my distrust in my own government by uncounted millions around the world that in many cases are dealing with millions of dollars not 70 dollars.

American cloud companies had been force to set up servers outside the US in order to keep their customers businesses.

I love it Frank that for the fear of a few terrorists you are willing to place a stake in the heart of our economic.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:30 pm
@BillRM,
I don't agree with you too often, but your statement
Quote:
I love it Frank that for the fear of a few terrorists you are willing to place a stake in the heart of our economic.....health.
I agree with 100%!
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:34 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Wow! UNICEF, really?

The spying on Thales and Total was to be expected, but it's now obvious that this vast spying network is interested in far more than terrorism... Time to retaliate. One simple way would be to flood them with false threats and disinformation. Or we could blow off GCHQ and blame it on Al Qaeda...
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:34 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
In first reaction, Joaquín Almunia, the EU-commissioner responsible for competition, thinks to be an unbelievable kind of economic spying: it was done during some economic meeting with European finance and economy minsters ...
The IDEAS Centre Geneva (and its CEO) were spied on because this Swiss "non-profit organisation dedicated to help low-income countries integrating into the world trading system in a way that supports their national poverty reduction and economic development efforts" was trying to get better prices for cotton from African countries on the world market.

But well, it's about national security ...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:35 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Pass 'em.

Then we can talk.


Talk about what?

In any case, the federal government can either stop this silliness or see the economic loss 100s of billions or dollars, if not trillions of dollars as a result and the whole internet from one end to the other become encrypted.

In fact, it is highly likely too late now to stop the internet from "going dark" or convict the world that it is either safe or wise to trust any US company concerning hardware or software for that matter.

I know I would never trust any VPN service that is base in the US or England and that is 70 dollars a year leaving the US and you can multiply my distrust in my own government by uncounted millions around the world that in many cases are dealing with millions of dollars not 70 dollars.

American cloud companies had been force to set up servers outside the US in order to keep their customers businesses.

I love it Frank that for the fear of a few terrorists you are willing to place a stake in the heart of our economic.


Yeah...I am placing a stake in the heart of our economy. Try to cut down on the hyperbole, Bill...your posts will be the better for it.

Once again...you are citing "a few terrorists."

But guys like you would be the first to jump all over the government if another attack comes...claiming the government had not done enough to prevent it.

You are a Monday morning quarterback, Bill.

And so is ci for agreeing with you.
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Yeah...I am placing a stake in the heart of our economy. Try to cut down on the hyperbole, Bill...your posts will be the better for it.


Read the statements of the major internet and computer CEOs to see how hyperbole my statements happen to be or the news stories of american companies needing to move whole computer centers off US soil to keep customers businesses or the stopping of the buying of random number generator chips and similar chips dues to fear that the NSA had force back doors into them.

You are burying your head in the sand and all over an extremely blown up threat model. If terrorists had knocked a dozen world trade centers down they could not do the economic harm we are now doing to ourselves.


JPB
 
  2  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:59 pm
Quote:
A member of the White House review panel on NSA surveillance said he was “absolutely” surprised when he discovered the agency’s lack of evidence that the bulk collection of telephone call records had thwarted any terrorist attacks.


“It was, ‘Huh, hello? What are we doing here?’” said Geoffrey Stone, a University of Chicago law professor, in an interview with NBC News. “The results were very thin.”
While Stone said the mass collection of telephone call records was a “logical program” from the NSA’s perspective, one question the White House panel was seeking to answer was whether it had actually stopped “any [terror attacks] that might have been really big.”

“We found none,” said Stone As in zero
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 01:18 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Yeah...I am placing a stake in the heart of our economy. Try to cut down on the hyperbole, Bill...your posts will be the better for it.


Read the statements of the major internet and computer CEOs to see how hyperbole my statements happen to be or the news stories of american companies needing to move whole computer centers off US soil to keep customers businesses or the stopping of the buying of random number generator chips and similar chips dues to fear that the NSA had force back doors into them.


Your statement that I am placing a stake in the heart of our economy...is hyperbole, Bill.

You have your mind closed to that possibility...so I doubt it will penetrate.

Quote:
You are burying your head in the sand and all over an extremely blown up threat model. If terrorists had knocked a dozen world trade centers down they could not do the economic harm we are now doing to ourselves.


You are suggesting that I have my head in the sand...yet you have all sorts of suspicions about what the government is doing "to us."

I am concerned about people who already have attacked us...and who are demonstrating all over the world how much they abhor us.

And in your eyes...I am the one on the wrong track.

Wow!

Do what you want, Bill.

I am willing to give up significant areas of personal privacy in the interests of the greater good.

If you think you can get those laws passed...get 'em passed.

I say you will have less privacy tomorrow than today...and less the day after that...NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 02:06 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You are suggesting that I have my head in the sand...yet you have all sorts of suspicions about what the government is doing "to us."


You mean like the program that we know exist to reveal the computer browsering habits of people the government does not like concerning going to legal repeat legal porn sites.

Seems the same as what Hoover did to Rev King concerning his private sex life and tell me as they have such programs already on line what to stop them from threatening a few Senators to get them to vote one way or another?

Quote:
I am concerned about people who already have attacked us...and who are demonstrating all over the world how much they abhor us.


But you are not concern at all over the many millions of people the US government actions have turn into US haters in the first world?

Quote:
I say you will have less privacy tomorrow than today...and less the day after that...NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO


An you base that opinion on your great knowledge of the internet and how it work and what can and can not be done to get NSA from doing massive spying?
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 02:23 pm
This is just the beginning of what the harm the US is doing to itself with NSA massive spying.

We do not need terrorists to attacks us we are able to do far more harm to ourselves.


Quote:


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-26/nsa-spying-risks-35-billion-in-u-s-technology-sales.html

NSA Spying Risks $35 Billion in U.S. Technology Sales
By Nicole Gaouette Nov 26, 2013 4:20 PM ET
125 Comments Email Print

International anger over the National Security Agency’s Internet surveillance is hurting global sales by American technology companies and setting back U.S. efforts to promote Internet freedom.

Disclosures of spying abroad may cost U.S. companies as much as $35 billion in lost revenue through 2016 because of doubts about the security of information on their systems, according to the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation, a policy research group in Washington whose board includes representatives of companies such as International Business Machines Corp. (IBM) and Intel Corp. (INTC)

“The potential fallout is pretty huge given how much our economy depends on the information economy for its growth,” said Rebecca MacKinnon, a senior fellow at the New America Foundation, a Washington policy group. “It’s increasingly where the U.S. advantage lies.”

Any setback in the U.S. push to maintain an open Internet also could inflict indirect damage on companies such as Apple Inc. (AAPL) and Google Inc. (GOOG) that benefit from global networks with few national restrictions.

Almost 40 percent of the world’s population, or 2.7 billion people, are online, according to the International Telecommunication Union, a Geneva-based United Nations agency.


Cisco Systems Inc. (CSCO), the world’s largest maker of computer-networking equipment, said this month that the NSA disclosures are causing some hesitation among customers in emerging markets.

Orders in China fell 18 percent in the three months ended Oct. 26. Elsewhere, Robert Lloyd, head of development and sales, said on a conference call Nov. 13, “it’s not having a material impact, but it’s certainly causing people to stop and then rethink decisions.”

‘Serious Damage’

News about U.S. surveillance disclosed by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden has “the great potential for doing serious damage to the competitiveness” of U.S. companies such as Cupertino, California-based Apple, Facebook Inc., and Microsoft Corp., Richard Salgado, Google’s director for law enforcement and information security, told a U.S. Senate panel Nov. 13. “The trust that’s threatened is essential to these businesses.”

The spying revelations have led governments around the world to consider “proposals that would limit the free flow of information,” Salgado said. “This could have severe unintended consequences, such as a reduction in data security, increased cost, decreased competitiveness, and harm to consumers.”

Brazil, Germany

Countries such as China and Russia that are seeking to impose more national controls on the Internet are finding their views gaining ground. Rising economic powers, including India, Mexico and South Korea, are weighing further limits. Brazil’s President Dilma Rousseff, a target of NSA surveillance, is calling for a new conversation about Internet governance with support from Germany, whose chancellor, Angela Merkel, also was an NSA target.

The uproar in Germany will probably hurt Akamai Technologies Inc. (AKAM)’s business there, according to Tom Leighton, chief executive officer of the Cambridge, Massachusetts-based company that helps corporate customers deliver online content faster.

“It’s clearly bad for American companies,” Leighton said Nov. 20 at “The Year Ahead: 2014,” a two-day conference in Chicago hosted by Bloomberg LP. “It’s particularly bad now in Germany, where it’s really being played up, to whip up anti-American corporate sentiment. We’ll probably lose some business there.”

Data Flows

Technology companies aren’t the only ones facing potential damage from disclosure of the NSA’s surveillance, said Myron Brilliant, an executive vice president with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in Washington. Studies show products and services that rely on cross-border data flows are expected to add an estimated $1 trillion in value to the U.S. economy annually over the next 10 years, he said.

“This is a priority issue, not just for technology or Web-based companies, but also small- and medium-sized businesses,” Brilliant said, listing finance, manufacturing, health care, education, shipping “and other areas not commonly thought of as Internet companies.”

Information technology companies were the first to see fallout after Snowden fled to Hong Kong in May and began releasing details of U.S. surveillance programs. Snowden is now living in Russia.

Cisco in China

Facing a backlash that’s already crimping sales in China, San Jose, California-based Cisco may be locked out of future purchases if the Chinese government cites security concerns to favor domestic companies in a projected surge of IT spending, to $520 billion in 2015, to increase urban broadband speeds and expand rural Internet access.

The cloud computing market will be valued at $207 billion by 2016, according to the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation.

A survey by the Cloud Security Alliance, an industry group, found that 10 percent of its non-U.S. members have canceled contracts with U.S.-based cloud providers since May. Fifty-six percent said they’d be less likely to use one.

“People aren’t going to trust the U.S. and U.S. companies as much,” said Jason Healey, director of the Cyber Statecraft Initiative at the Atlantic Council, a Washington-based policy group. “You’re going to see national boundaries begin in cyberspace.”

Internet Regulation

For years, the U.S. has lobbied against such an approach, advocated by countries including China and Russia. In 2011, they submitted a proposed “Internet code of conduct” to the United Nations. The U.S. has pushed back, “trying hard to get up-and-coming countries like Brazil to trust us, not the Chinese, about how the Internet should look,” Healey said.

A top-down intergovernmental approach “would hamper the pace of innovation and hamper global economic development, and it could lead to unprecedented control over what people say and do online,” Daniel A. Sepulveda, the U.S. State Department’s coordinator for international communications and information policy, said in a Nov. 6 phone briefing.

Today, a UN panel adopted a resolution sponsored by Brazil and Germany expressing concern over the “negative impact” of Internet surveillance. The 193-member General Assembly will vote next month on the document, which calls for a report by next year on privacy protections “in the context of domestic and extraterritorial surveillance and/or interception of digital communications and collection of personal data.”

‘Political Message’

The move sends a “political message” that “the right to privacy has to be protected” even though the resolution isn’t legally binding, Peter Wittig, Germany’s ambassador, told reporters after the resolution’s adoption.

Since Snowden’s disclosures revealed that the NSA was monitoring exchanges between Rousseff and her top aides, the Brazilian president has led an effort to establish Internet protections.

Brazil is considering legislation that would require companies such as Mountain View, California-based Google to use local data centers or equipment developed by the government. A preference for non-U.S. providers could hurt companies such as Sunnyvale, California-based Juniper Networks Inc. (JNPR), which accounted for 10 percent of Brazil’s router revenue in the first half of the year, or Cisco, which holds 56 percent.

German E-Mail

In Germany, Bonn-based Deutsche Telekom AG (DTR) is part of an alliance of companies promoting a system to keep German e-mail and Web searches within the country.

“The private sector is very worried about this because it messes with what might be most economic way to route message flows and traffic,” said Gene Kimmelman, project director for human rights and Internet policy at the New America Foundation, a Washington policy group. “If you’re forced to have equipment in a certain country, by law, it might add significant expense to an operation.”

European Union legislators set to negotiate a trade agreement with the U.S. want to include strict rules for American companies handling EU citizens’ data and fine them heavily for violations.

Some of the anger over the NSA is disingenuous, given that there’s “a substantial awareness that surveillance goes on” in many countries, Kimmelman said.

Even so, Google’s Salgado said international reaction to the NSA’s surveillance risks changing the nature of the Internet.

He said proposals being advanced could lead to the “creation of a splinter net, broken up into smaller national regional pieces with barriers around it to replace the global Internet that we know today.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Nicole Gaouette in Washington at [email protected]

To contact the editor responsible for this story: John Walcott at [email protected]

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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 02:31 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
You are suggesting that I have my head in the sand...yet you have all sorts of suspicions about what the government is doing "to us."


You mean like the program that we know exist to reveal the computer browsering habits of people the government does not like concerning going to legal repeat legal porn sites.

Seems the same as what Hoover did to Rev King concerning his private sex life and tell me as they have such programs already on line what to stop them from threatening a few Senators to get them to vote one way or another?


Well...I still don't think that compares to the many attacks on Americans in various countries...and on the World Trade Center.

But...if you think it is...that's what you think.

Quote:
Quote:
I am concerned about people who already have attacked us...and who are demonstrating all over the world how much they abhor us.


But you are not concern at all over the many millions of people the US government actions have turn into US haters in the first world?


Yeah...I am concerned about that. And spying has been going on since biblical days. So...we spy. Big deal. My guess is that every country spies.


Quote:

Quote:
I say you will have less privacy tomorrow than today...and less the day after that...NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO


An you base that opinion on your great knowledge of the internet and how it work and what can and can not be done to get NSA from doing massive spying?



I base that on the fact that the first time our ancestors came down out of the trees...they gave up some privacy. With each move to "civilization" we gave up more. With each move to "modern civilization" we gave up even more.

I don't think it will stop.

If you do...you do.

Pass more laws against it...and while you are at it, pass laws against earthquakes and hurricanes also. They cause lots of trouble also.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 20 Dec, 2013 02:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Yeah...I am concerned about that. And spying has been going on since biblical days. So...we spy. Big deal. My guess is that every country spies.


ROFLMAO Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm asking you Frank. Did they have a Constitution the prohibited intrusion into private lives back then? LOL
 

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