42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 09:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
I certainly don't want to see Snowden trialed. I want see Bush and Obama trialed... Forget about the small fish.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 09:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
You're going on a tangent. Cameras are not the subject of this thread. I personally support their spread because they are indeed an effective police tool. But it is out of topic. The discussion is about NSA spying. Try again, focussing on the topic at hand, i.e. try to find a positive aspect to the mass surveillance of emails and phone calls by the state.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 10:19 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

You're going on a tangent. Cameras are not the subject of this thread. I personally support their spread because they are indeed an effective police tool. But it is out of topic. The discussion is about NSA spying.


It is NOT about NSA spying, Olivier...it is about whether or not Snowden is a dummy. Read the title before giving a lecture.

Almost everything that had to be said about whether or not Snowden is a dummy or not was said in the first five pages.

So, yeah, I diverged...as have so many others.

You are the one deciding to come in and take a shot at me as though I were talking about something else by creating a straw man. As usual...you missed me and have managed to hit yourself with further shots.

I am not big on state surveillance, Olivier...and I think the NSA probably has gone further in the snooping direction than is necessary. But I do not know for sure...and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. In any case, I see the increase in technological capability to be a driving force in using it (the technology) more and more. It seems to be a human tendency...and has happened with other technological advancement in areas such as transportation (we use cars more than we should and drive them more recklessly than we should); communications (we text in movie houses, operas, and while driving when we shouldn't)...and other areas.

The intelligence community now has the ability to access information they never thought they could get. They are going to use it...and politicians and leaders are going to find excuses for them to do so.

Fight it if you want. I do not tilt windmills myself...but I admire people willing to take such stuff on. I would bet big bucks your efforts (and the efforts of all these others) will meet with the same success as obtained by the people who championed horses for transportation over the automobile.

Quote:
Try again, focussing on the topic at hand, i.e. try to find a positive aspect to the mass surveillance of emails and phone calls by the state.


Okay...I guess I have to repeat myself because obviously you are a person who just does not get what is being said unless it is repeated dozens of times.

The topic essentially is: Is Snowden a dummy?

MY OPINION:

No, he is not a dummy. He is not a traitor. He is not a hero.

He is a guy accused of stealing and disseminating classified documents...and I think he should be returned to the US (if at all possible) and get a fair trial.

I have said that a dozens times now, Olivier. You complain that I repeat myself...but you simply are not able to follow anything unless it is repeated dozens of times.

Doesn't make you a bad person, though. Wink


Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 10:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
But I understand we do with Germany...and I cannot help but wonder about the ramifications of Snowden coming to Germany to be deposed in this regard.

Do you have any info on that? Can a temporary departure from any treaties that exist be granted?

Yesterday I wrote:

The Parliamentary Research Services of the German Bundestag wrote that Snowden could travel to Germany as a witness without having to fear an extradition to the USA (The extradition request is already here). Snowdon is now legally stateless, but besides international legal and humanitarian reasons the "protection of polotical interests" of the German Federal Republic would justify to grant him a "residence title for specific purposes".

Nothing has changed.
But now ... the German government is on a little back-paddling tour.
Perhaps "someone" will interrogate Snowden in Russia, depending on what the parliament decides on November 18.

I don't think that he will (can?) get asylum here.
But even with the possibility of granting him a "residence title for specific purposes" I have my doubts:
- we have momentarily only an acting government,
- this will be discussed in the coalition talks ... but I can't see THAT big difference between the conservatives and the Social-Democrats because ..
- everyone (of those two/three parties) wants to be friendly with the USA again (it's only ranting for the gallery just now.)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 11:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
But I understand we do with Germany...and I cannot help but wonder about the ramifications of Snowden coming to Germany to be deposed in this regard.

Do you have any info on that? Can a temporary departure from any treaties that exist be granted?

Yesterday I wrote:

The Parliamentary Research Services of the German Bundestag wrote that Snowden could travel to Germany as a witness without having to fear an extradition to the USA (The extradition request is already here). Snowdon is now legally stateless, but besides international legal and humanitarian reasons the "protection of polotical interests" of the German Federal Republic would justify to grant him a "residence title for specific purposes".

Nothing has changed.
But now ... the German government is on a little back-paddling tour.
Perhaps "someone" will interrogate Snowden in Russia, depending on what the parliament decides on November 18.

I don't think that he will (can?) get asylum here.
But even with the possibility of granting him a "residence title for specific purposes" I have my doubts:
- we have momentarily only an acting government,
- this will be discussed in the coalition talks ... but I can't see THAT big difference between the conservatives and the Social-Democrats because ..
- everyone (of those two/three parties) wants to be friendly with the USA again (it's only ranting for the gallery just now.)


I now remember reading that explanation, but I actually thought I read it in a newspaper somewhere.

I get all the points you are making here...and I think we all can see this is a very fluid affair right now.

I cannot imagine Snowden thought out all these possible scenarios...and I stand by what I said earlier, that he probably is having different thoughts about what he did than he had before he did it.

My expectations are that Snowden will tread lightly until this temp year is up...and then hope that someone will be willing to take him in. If a country does grant permanent asylum...I expect that Russia will insure safe passage...and I would hope the US would not try to strong arm a Russian plane into a landing where Snowden could be accessed.

And...there is always the possibility that Snowden will decide that voluntary return to the US to stand trial might be his best option. Frankly, I think it is...and I expect that there are legal minds at work trying to convince him in that direction.

Thanks again for all the info.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 11:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I now remember reading that explanation, but I actually thought I read it in a newspaper somewhere.
Don't tell me that my translation and summary of the German reports was as good as what you can read in US-newspapers Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 11:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You are clearer! Wink
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 11:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
and I think he should be returned to the US (if at all possible) and get a fair trial.


But you think Bush and all the other war criminals should be given a free pass, why? because you think the US is going thru a bit of a tough time.

You don't see the huge disconnect from reality, Frank?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 11:46 am
Seems, most European spy agencies are involved, and the Germansand French are rather good doing so.
GCHQ and European spy agencies worked together on mass surveillance
Quote:
[...] However, in a country-by-country survey of its European partners, GCHQ officials expressed admiration for the technical capabilities of German intelligence to do the same thing. The survey in 2008, when Tempora was being tested, said the Federal Intelligence Service (BND), had "huge technological potential and good access to the heart of the internet – they are already seeing some bearers running at 40Gbps and 100Gbps." ...
The document also makes clear that British intelligence agencies were helping their German counterparts change or bypass laws that restricted their ability to use their advanced surveillance technology.

"We have been assisting the BND (along with SIS [Secret Intelligence Service] and Security Service) in making the case for reform or reinterpretation of the very restrictive interception legislation in Germany," it says.
[...]
The country-by-country survey, which in places reads somewhat like a school report, also hands out high marks to the GCHQ's French partner, the General Directorate for External Security (DGSE). But in this case it is suggested that the DGSE's comparative advantage is its relationship with an unnamed telecommunications company, a relationship GCHQ hoped to leverage for its own operations.

"DGSE are a highly motivated, technically competent partner, who have shown great willingness to engage on IP [internet protocol] issues, and to work with GCHQ on a "cooperate and share" basis.

Noting that the Cheltenham-based electronic intelligence agency had trained DGSE technicians on "multi-disciplinary internet operations", the document adds: "We have made contact with the DGSE's main industry partner, who has some innovative approaches to some internet challenges, raising the potential for GCHQ to make use of this company in the protocol development arena."
[...]
It is clear from the Snowden documents that GCHQ has become Europe's intelligence hub in the internet age, and not just because of its success in creating a legally permissive environment for its operations. Britain's location as the European gateway for many transatlantic cables, and its privileged relationship with the NSA has made GCHQ an essential partner for European agencies. The documents show British officials frequently lobbying the NSA on sharing of data with the Europeans and haggling over its security classification so it can be more widely disseminated. In the intelligence world, far more than it managed in diplomacy, Britain has made itself an indispensable bridge between America and Europe's spies.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 11:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And...there is always the possibility that Snowden will decide that voluntary return to the US to stand trial might be his best option. Frankly, I think it is...and I expect that there are legal minds at work trying to convince him in that direction.


Yes indeed thirty or fourth years in a small cell at a fed super max is indeed his best option.................
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 12:28 pm
A very interesting interactive summary @ The Guardian: NSA Files Decoded
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 12:49 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Ok, so you failed again and again to make your case about the positive aspects of the surveillance state. Not surprisingly, as it'd be a tough case for anyone to make...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 02:14 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
And...there is always the possibility that Snowden will decide that voluntary return to the US to stand trial might be his best option. Frankly, I think it is...and I expect that there are legal minds at work trying to convince him in that direction.


Yes indeed thirty or fourth years in a small cell at a fed super max is indeed his best option.................


If he is found guilty...that is where he belongs. And it might be better than what he will have almost anywhere else.

If he is found not-guilty...he will released.

So yes, it MIGHT BE his best option.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 02:15 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Ok, so you failed again and again to make your case about the positive aspects of the surveillance state. Not surprisingly, as it'd be a tough case for anyone to make...


I did not fail anything. I am not bothering with your straw men.

And having some fun toying with you.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 02:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Well, since you stated that "we will each have less and less personal privacy...and there are both good and bad sides to that", I just wanted to know what the good sides could possibly be. Turns out you don't know... No big deal.

spendius
 
  3  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 03:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And having some fun toying with you.


In what sense, it might be asked, is Apisa having fun toying with another poster anymore than anyone else is sufficiently for him to be continually reminding us all of this asserted condition of his which we are presumably meant to admire. It is only another version of "that's laughable".

I lost count of the number of times Apisa has asserted the same thing about my posts. But I asked an amateur psychologist about such states of mind seeing as how it has become a repetitive mantra in many of Apisa's non-responses. It's like declaring Thomas "cranky". Or somebody being obsessed with his horrible self.

"He's probably under the cosh", I was first told. But I pressed him a little further as it was a quiet night in the pub as usual on Thursdays.

"It's quite common" he said, " we see it a lot. It is a sort of defensive obsession which is readily fueled and exercised by looking for confrontations. It derives, we think", he continued, after a blatant study of the barmaid's frontage as she bent to get a glass off the bottom shelf, " from the need at assuage, appease one might say, a pent-up and frustratingly rankling sense of the humilities often experienced by people living genteel, retiring lives in some non-descript backwater where the endless series of inevitable and ineluctable trivialities, a 3 foot putt to save a treble bogey say,
create a dreadful sense of failure considering the wide open and welcoming arms which our world offered to men of spirit and fortitude in the early sixties. This often causes", he went on, after I had bid him cease for a moment to find a pen on which to jot his thoughts on a beer mat, " a certain appetite for forced and vigorous drama, as in Knight and Day, on which a fat arsed, rabbit "golfer" might cast himself in victorious mode."

"A form of catharsis you mean?" I replied. "Yes", he said.

So those of us who Apisa treats in this unethical manner should see ourselves as performing a public service in providing him with a modicum of relief from the torture of enduring a life of little nothings and bound to the wheel of pointless and ridiculous activity with no end in sight and which might seek outlets in less harmless surroundings than we have here.

Having had a "great beer" was considered such an important event that it was thought fit to bring it to our notice. Perhaps it was the highlight of the day. Or the week. A blip on a flat-line a boozer would call that.

My pal told me to go easy on him though. He said they can explode when their bluff is called. Hence my temperate language.



BillRM
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 03:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And it might be better than what he will have almost anywhere else.


Please please tell me where in the world would he get a worst deal then the US government would care to offer him?

He would be insane to allow himself to be return to the US and footnote the one man who was part of the Booth group that not only survive but live to be an old man in freedom ran to the Canadian border.

Only to return many years later after the passion over the matter had died down.

If he had not run like hell at the time the picture below would have one more person on the gallows with him hanging right by his mother.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFrlQi1Ao7QlNMZM97RhWkvOiOpsnqvUjN0XK3xFHh-WxYa2T3wA
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 03:25 pm
@spendius,
So funny I'm jealous! Smile
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 03:28 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
belongIf he is found guilty...that is where hes


By the way I bet you think that George Washington should had been capture and return to England to be hung as he did break a lot of laws and was a traitor to his King.

We have a US government that is more and more illegitimate that well need to rule more and more using sheer power and terror and not moral standing.

We are roughly at the same state as the colonies was in the late 1760s to early 1770s under English rule.
JTT
 
  0  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 03:42 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
We have a US government that is more and more illegitimate that well need to rule more and more using sheer power and terror and not moral standing.


That has always been the case, Bill. I've been telling you this forever and you've been denying it. The US has always been a terrorist nation ruling by sheer terror and power.
0 Replies
 
 

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