Snowdon is a dummy

@Frank Apisa,

With all the nonsense that had been done by the NSA to the EU nations now public Snowdon is far more likely to get an EU medal then have any EU nation other then the UK deporting him to the US.

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@Walter Hinteler,

You guys should give him asylum.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

You guys should give him asylum.

Hell the EU as the EU should give him asylum if that is possible.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I wonder how the Russians would feel about re-entry.

I've no idea about how asylum laws and procedures actually work in Russia. (A friend holds a Russian law degree, but she isn't fit in this legal area at all.)

It seems to be possible that he could get asylum in Germany, though. At least, if re-entry would be denied, he could stay here as a "person with exceptional leave to remain for humanitarian reasons".

Germany's parliament is expected to discuss the NSA's alleged activities Nov. 18 and lawmakers then may/will decide to set up a commission of inquiry.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Hell the EU as the EU should give him asylum if that is possible.

Organisations can't do that.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

For your info, you don't actually need to pick on me or anyone else... That's attacking the messenger. Address the issues instead, starting with: Is a "big brother society" a good thing, and why? Or: how does such mass surveillance fit the Bill of Rights? Or: is keeping allies and partners more or less important than listening to what they say over the phone?

I am trying to help you here...

Sure you are...and I appreciate it. But you ought to be trying to help yourself, Olivier. You need it much more than I; you keep stepping on all the cracks, so to speak.

And the story about "picking on you" was irony. (Look it up!)

Whether a "Big Brother society" is a good thing or not is not really the question I am dealing with. The technology we have is almost dictating that we will each have less and less personal privacy...and there are both good and bad sides to that.

As far as the Bill of Rights is concerned...I will trust to the judgement of the SCOTUS...not to you or the others claiming skill in that are here on A2K.

As for our partners and allies...they are adults...and know the ins and outs of global politics. Some of the outrage is way overdone.

And all this I have outlined several times, Olivier.

We differ on our opinions about this issue. I respect your right to have your opinion...and expect you to respect my right to have mine.

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@Frank Apisa,

Code:

The technology we have is almost dictating that we will each have less and less personal privacy...and there are both good and bad sides to that.

Ok so now you're actually starting to say something, little by little... You might wish to expand a tiny little bit on what is good and what is bad about it though, for everything, even ice cream, could be characterized as having "both good and bad sides to it"...

Also note that as customers, we can decide not to purchase any technology, and that as citizens, we can force the state to limit attacks on privacy, so there's nothing "dictating" us...

Code:As far as the Bill of Rights is concerned...I will trust to the judgement of the SCOTUS.

So you don't trust your own judgment?

Quote:

Some of the outrage is way overdone.

And much of your outrage about Snowden is overdone as well, but that was not the question. The question was: what is more important for the US? Keeping Germany as an ally, or listening to its chancellor's cellphone?

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Whether a "Big Brother society" is a good thing or not is not really the question I am dealing with.

Your war criminals and terrorists are hardly Big Brothers, Frank. They are, and have been for over two centuries, mean, vicious, inhumane scoundrels and pirates.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Code:The technology we have is almost dictating that we will each have less and less personal privacy...and there are both good and bad sides to that.

Ok so now you're actually starting to say something, little by little...

I have been saying plenty...and for quite a while. Glad you woke up and started to realize it.

Quote:

You might wish to expand a tiny little bit on what is good and what is bad about it though, for everything, even ice cream, could be characterized as having "both good and bad sides to it"...

I might. But your tone is such that I am not driven to do so.

Quote:

Also note that as customers, we can decide not to purchase any technology, and that as citizens, we can force the state to limit attacks on privacy, so there's nothing "dictating" us...

Okay...so avoid the technology...and your privacy should be absolute...or so you seem to be intimating.

Quote:

Code:As far as the Bill of Rights is concerned...I will trust to the judgement of the SCOTUS.

So you don't trust your own judgment?

The full quote was: “As far as the Bill of Rights is concerned...I will trust to the judgement of the SCOTUS...not to you or the others claiming skill in that are here on A2K.”

I’ll stick with that. If you want to think that means I do not trust my own judgment…that is your prerogative.

Quote:

Quote:
Some of the outrage is way overdone.

And much of your outrage about Snowden is overdone as well, but that was not the question. The question was: what is more important for the US? Keeping Germany as an ally, or listening to its chancellor's cellphone?

What outrage have I expressed toward Snowden? I don't remember any...but I will deal with the "outrage" if you point it out. I doubt you will.

And for the record…that was not the question at all!

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I might. But your tone is such that I am not driven to do so.

More likely, you don't have a clue what positive aspect there possibly could be in a Big Brother society. And for good reasons: there is not much good to say about it...

Quote:

Okay...so avoid the technology...and your privacy should be absolute...or so you seem to be intimating.

And/or "we can force the state to limit attacks on privacy" (bis repetita Franki placent).

Quote:

The full quote was: “As far as the Bill of Rights is concerned...I will trust to the judgement of the SCOTUS...not to you or the others claiming skill in that are here on A2K.”

I’ll stick with that. If you want to think that means I do not trust my own judgment…that is your prerogative.

Asked for your opinion, you defer to the supreme court... But if you trust your own judgment on this issue, maybe you could be so bold as to share it with the rest of us?

Quote:

And for the record…that was not the question at all!

You have comprehension problems.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Obviously, Walter...this is another issue on which you have no doubts.

If that's so, he's not the only one. If you have any doubts that Snowden will get a fair trial in the US, I haven't seen you express them as of page 173 of this thread.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Your take on it has to be the only reasonable one...and anyone who has a different take or who acknowledges that the NSA is restrained from mounting a full defense

. . . like Snowden . . .

Frank Apisa wrote:

because it is the caretaker of secrets...

. . . like Snowden was. Even on the least charitable reading of Walter's position, what we have here is a pot--kettle situation.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

So you don't trust your own judgment?

You were looking so reasonable for awhile and than slipped into insult and innuendo. Just cant help yourself, can you.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I might. But your tone is such that I am not driven to do so.

While yours is sweet and propelled only by your desire to see the truth outed, right, Frank?

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@RABEL222,

Quote:

You were looking so reasonable for awhile and than slipped into insult and innuendo

What insult or innuendo? It's a valid line of questioning. What is your opinion about the conformity of all this spying with your constitution? Frank referred the issue to the SCOTUS... Why? He doesn't have an opinion? He doesn't have a clue what the bill of rights says? He doesn't want to know? Can a frog provide a link to the US bill of rights to an American, if the latter can't be bothered to google it?

He doesn't trust his own judgment, that's the most charitable hypothesis I can think of.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier

I will just point out the unethical way you deal with debate…and leave it at that.

Earlier, I wrote:

Quote:

“Whether a "Big Brother society" is a good thing or not is not really the question I am dealing with. The technology we have is almost dictating that we will each have less and less personal privacy...and there are both good and bad sides to that.”

Now here you are back to:

Quote:

More likely, you don't have a clue what positive aspect there possibly could be in a Big Brother society. And for good reasons: there is not much good to say about it...

You create straw men...and then battle against them. You apparently are not up to the job of dealing with what actually is written.

I think a big part of your problem, Olivier, (as I mentioned earlier) is that you allow me to get under your skin so easily and so often.

Deal with that…then come back and try to post in response to what I am actually saying rather than distorting my comments in order to try make your arguments seem reasonable.

They aren't.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Obviously, Walter...this is another issue on which you have no doubts.

If that's so, he's not the only one. If you have any doubts that Snowden will get a fair trial in the US, I haven't seen you express them as of page 173 of this thread.

Not sure what you are saying here, Thomas, but I am confident Snowden can get a fair trial here in the US...and I have said that dozens of times on the 173 pages of this thread.

If you are talking about my tone to Walter...I have already apologized to him for that. It was unnecessary and inappropriate.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Your take on it has to be the only reasonable one...and anyone who has a different take or who acknowledges that the NSA is restrained from mounting a full defense

. . . like Snowden . . .

Once again, Thomas, I do not understand what you are trying to say here. I am of the opinion that Snowden CAN mount a full defense...and if he is brought back here for trial, I am sure he will have an army of lawyer scholars to mount his defense. Unless you are suggesting that any judge in the trial will be an American Roland Freisler…it should be a fair trial. I suspect the people who support Snowden and who think he is a hero…want anything but a fair trial.

I think the need to keep secrets WILL work against the prosecution...which is what I said.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
because it is the caretaker of secrets...

. . . like Snowden was. Even on the least charitable reading of Walter's position, what we have here is a pot--kettle situation.

Okay…but your point is????

1 Reply

The German interior minister already signaled that the government is willing to question Snowden and listen to him.

Just now, Ströbele is presenting the letter, Snowden wrote to the Merkel, to the public ...

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zpsef9228ff.jpg

... more later.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-563389-galleryV9-nejw.jpg

Letter as pdf-data

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Not sure what you are saying here, Thomas, but I am confident Snowden can get a fair trial here in the US...and I have said that dozens of times on the 173 pages of this thread.

Exactly. You have expressed your confidence dozens of times in this thread. And nowhere on its 173 pages have you expressed any doubt about the trial's fairness, or allowed for the mere possibility that your confidence is misplaced. That's my point. You complained that Walter is incapable of self-skepticism, yet you haven't yet demonstrated any such capability yourself. This double standard is the issue. Your tone isn't --- not as far as I am concerned.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Allow me to rephrase then: you don't have a clue what possible good side there could be to a society where "we have less and less privacy".

And similarly, you don't have a clue whether that would contradict the US constitution, and the saddest thing is you probably don't care.... Issues are not your 'thing'.

You know what your problem is, Frank? You invest way too much effort in trying to get under other posters' skin, instead of trying to think through the issues at hand. Maybe that's an effective technique on a golf course, but it leads you nowhere here...

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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