42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 12:19 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
I am beginning to wonder just how much spying experience you really have.
Just what I experienced during the cold war ... until the late 70's.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 12:20 pm
Some quote from a DW-report:
Quote:
[...]On her way to a gathering of European leaders on Thursday, Merkel told reporters that the surveillance of her mobile communications, if proven, would prove cast a shadow over relations with Washington.
"Spying between friends is simply unacceptable," Merkel said as she arrived for the two-day European Union summit in Brussels. "We need trust between partners and such trust needs to be re-established," she said. ... "We are allies facing challenges together. But such an alliance can only be built on the basis of trust. I repeat that spying among friends is not at all acceptable against anyone and that goes for every citizen in Germany."

Other European leaders arriving in Brussels expressed concern about the allegations. Belgian Prime Minister Elio Di Rupo called for action at the European level.

"Facts are facts," said Di Rupo. "We cannot accept this systematic spying, whatever it may be. We need to take measures and I can't imagine measures at the national level. We need to take European measures."

Swedish Prime Minister Frederik Reinfeldt said, while data gathering was necessary in counter-terrorism operations and in thwarting crime, the notion of spying on foreign leaders was unacceptable. "It should not be used to listen to each other, when we look at elected leaders," he said.
[...]
The European Justice commissioner, Viviane Reding, said on Thursday that the latest reports of the US National Security Agency spying not only on European citizens, but also Chancellor Merkel, demanded a "a strong and united" approach to data security.
"Data protection must apply no matter if it concerns the e-mails of citizens or the mobile phone of Angela Merkel," Reding's spokesperson told reporters in Brussels, just hours before the bloc's 28 heads of state and government were to open the summit.

0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 12:25 pm
Back to Snowdon. If he only wanted to out the illegal spying thing why dident he go to the American papers? There a bunch of them that would have happily printed his allegations. And he could have claimed whistleblower protection under U S law. When he copied secret files and carried them out of the country he broke the law. I have to believe that knowing he broke the law he dosent really care if he can return to the US. As I have stated before I believe he did it for money, which in conservative eyes should make him a hero. And while I am about it I wonder who lost their jobs for making it so easy for anyone to steal US secrets. I would be willing to bet no one higher up did, but a couple of lower echelon clerks did.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 12:34 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
If he only wanted to out the illegal spying thing why dident he go to the American papers? There a bunch of them that would have happily printed his allegations. And he could have claimed whistleblower protection under U S law.

I read that he couldn't benefit from that legislation because he was only a contractual consultant, not a staff. On the newspapers, my guess is he just didn't trust them to go through with the story without reporting him.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 12:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
It is amazing that you, Walter, and Thomas are among the most adamant in condemning the United States for how it is handling its power.

I just wonder what the world would be like if the only surviving super-power...were Germany.

I wonder if Germany would handle that power with more grace; more dignity; more reasonableness.

I must say I am willing to make a guess on this: My guess would be that the world would be A LOT worse off in that scenario.
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:05 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Fine, keep your war criminals protected. But don't expect me to believe your laughable propaganda about US troops being held accountable through martial courts,'cause that's BS for little school boys and girls. If you were better informed, you wouldn't believe it yourself.


Strange as you could write to those who are at this very moment serving time for such misdeeds in US military prisons.

But facts are never important to people like you.

Below is an example of that happening

Quote:


Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States Department of Defense removed seventeen soldiers and officers from duty, and eleven soldiers were charged with dereliction of duty, maltreatment, aggravated assault and battery. Between May 2004 and March 2006, eleven soldiers were convicted in courts-martial, sentenced to military prison, and dishonorably discharged from service. Two soldiers, Specialist Charles Graner, and his former fiancée, Specialist Lynndie England, were sentenced to ten years and three years in prison, respectively, in trials ending on January 14, 2005 and September 26, 2005. The commanding officer of all Iraq detention facilities, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, was reprimanded for dereliction of duty and demoted to the rank of Colonel on May 5, 2005.
JTT
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
This silly issue that you raise, Frank, is a complete non-issue. The crimes of others have nothing to do with the crimes of the United States.

I'm sure that even you can see that the THEORETICAL maunderings of Frank Apisa matter even less.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Germany isn't the only surviving super-power.
And I've not the slightest imagination how times would be, if ...

(Remember that old joke on Abuzz about Andorra? Now, they have even two heads of state there ... )
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:16 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
But facts are never important to people like you.


Unbelievable, simply unbelievable!. This from you, BillRM, one of the worst apologists for US war criminals and terrorists. I have posted information from countless sources, many of those sources from the US government itself, showing that you are a bald faced liar when you advance this nonsense.

Quote:
Below is an example of that happening


AN EXAMPLE, wow, Bill really, AN example???!! Out of the, what, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of war crimes committed by US troops you provide us with AN example.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:17 pm
Quote:
No wonder the US is spying on Merkel. I mean, you never know
If the US was tapping Berlusconi, it could charge people to listen and wipe out its debt

The reason there’s now such a vast network of global surveillance, we’re told by British and American governments, is it’s essential in defending our security against terrorist plots. So that must be why the US authorities tapped the phone calls of Angela Merkel.
She doesn’t look the type, but that’s always the way with radical Islamic Jihadists who’ve worked their way into being Chancellor of Germany so they can inflict glorious holy war upon the infidels, so we should be thankful the Feds were on to her. They’ve probably already decoded her sinister messages, declaring, “This call here, where she says ‘We must maintain the strength of the euro for the fiscal year 2013/14’, it means ‘Kill the bastards. Kill them all without mercy. And don’t forget to strap the explosive to your chest extra tight as that Velcro tends to come undone, and if those explosives spill all over the bus you’ll feel a right fool’.”

There are other possibilities I suppose. Maybe the FBI suspects she’s part of the Berlin criminal underworld. So while she’s in her office late at night, Obama’s in a van outside listening to her make calls such as, “Oi Nobby. I think Plod’s on to us. We’ve got an informer and I suspect Francois Hollande. If he asks any questions don’t say nothing, he might be wearing a wire.”

Or she might be dealing. All evening, when the other German ministers think she’s preparing her speech for a summit somewhere, she’s weighing out grass and telling customers, “This is good ****. At the G20 this was everywhere, the Prime Minister of Japan was ripped all through the agreement on fishing rights.”

The only other explanation is there’s a side to Obama we haven’t seen before, and he’s like an old man in an East End pub. So he kept saying, “I tell you what, Michelle – that Merkel might look all innocent but as my granddad said, never trust the Bosch. One minute they’re having a friendly chat about interest rates, then while you’re not looking the Sudetenland’s gone, I’ll tap her phone to see what she’s up to.”

The confusing part is you could understand America tapping world leaders’ phones if it was Berlusconi or Putin. Their calls could be put on sale, to be downloaded for a dollar each or put on an 0898 number to wipe out the American debt. But to be fair, this comforting sense of us all being constantly surveyed ought to be extended, if we’re to feel truly safe. For example, surely no one would object if the CIA had a secret camera placed in all our toilets, in case any of us is using the privacy of our khazi to plot a hijacking.

This is why no reasonable person objects to their emails being checked and passed on to governments. Because how can our police force expect to protect us from suicide bombers if they don’t know when a woman in a cottage by a river in Suffolk has ordered a set of china cups of saucers on special offer on Amazon?

The only complaint that can be made is that if everything we do and say is being so closely monitored we ought to be allowed to get our phone calls sponsored. Then whenever we phone a relative, as long as at some point we say, “While I remember, Mum, one thought I was having about Christmas is elephant.co.uk, that’s elephant.co.uk, then we can come up on Boxing Day”, we can make surveillance pay. With all the security officials that will hear that, there could be an arrangement that would make telephone calls almost free.

The justification for these levels of spying is that we’re facing a threat to our way of life, so that’s why we need more of it, to protect all those ways of life and not just a few. For example the disabled should be allowed to tap the phone of Iain Duncan Smith, so they can be aware of whatever he’s plotting next. This could be valuable information, giving them advance notice of a “one wheelchair between two” scheme, or a plan to make them rent out their artificial legs as poles in lap-dancing clubs.

So we need more surveillance, but it should be us surveying them. As one of the most powerful people in Europe Angela Merkel should be surveyed, by everyone EXCEPT the only institution even more powerful than hers.

The American government hasn’t, over the years, been all that touchy about blowing things up, to the extent it’s probable that the main reason they want to listen in to the phone calls of terrorists is so they can pick up tips. So we should be listening in to them. Over the last decades, if people round the world had found out Henry Kissinger or Donald Rumsfeld had Googled “Flowers of the Amazon” or bought tickets to see Barbaa Streisand, we WOULD be entitled to think, “Hang on, what are they up to”, and intern them for a couple of months just in case.

So it seems quite reasonable to propose a deal in which the taps on Mrs Merkel’s phones stay in place, and all the spying equipment in the world is kept going – it’s just the people doing it that’s changed. Maybe Edward Snowden can be put in charge. He seems to know how it works.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Germany isn't the only surviving super-power.
And I've not the slightest imagination how times would be, if ...


Wow...I am willing to make a guess...and...

Quote:

(Remember that old joke on Abuzz about Andorra? Now, they have even two heads of state there ... )


Missed that one, Walter. What was it?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:36 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
If you are tying to say that the U S of A is the only country who spies on friendly countries you are spreading BS pretty thick. All countries spy on each other, both friendly and unfriendly.
Quote:
NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts
• Agency given more than 200 numbers by government official
• NSA encourages departments to share their 'Rolodexes'
• Surveillance produced 'little intelligence', memo acknowledges

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps05288a29.jpg

The National Security Agency monitored the phone conversations of 35 world leaders after being given the numbers by an official in another US government department, according to a classified document provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The confidential memo reveals that the NSA encourages senior officials in its "customer" departments, such the White House, State and the Pentagon, to share their "Rolodexes" so the agency can add the phone numbers of leading foreign politicians to their surveillance systems.

The document notes that one unnamed US official handed over 200 numbers, including those of the 35 world leaders, none of whom is named. These were immediately "tasked" for monitoring by the NSA.
... ... ...
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Wow...I am willing to make a guess...and...


I'll bet you are, Frank. You're more than willing to leap at any tangent, bit of nonsense that you can to avoid the central issue.

Why do you keep giving Frank these opportunities, Walter?
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:41 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I was just thinking earlier today about abuzz. this site is becoming more and more like abuzz was just before it shut down. Do you think with all the unfriendly name calling and insults it will happen to a2k. Of course I only post on the political site because of time constraints so I dont know if the rest of a2k is this unfriendly.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:45 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

I was just thinking earlier today about abuzz. this site is becoming more and more like abuzz was just before it shut down. Do you think with all the unfriendly name calling and insults it will happen to a2k. Of course I only post on the political site because of time constraints so I dont know if the rest of a2k is this unfriendly.


Way, way too much name-calling...and insulting going on. I do a bit of it myself, but truly do keep it to a minimum. Some people seem never to post a comment without calling someone else a moron or stupid...or a liar or hypocrite.

If the site does shut...it will not be because of that. It will be because the site is maybe two dozen people (with a visitor once in a while)...yapping at each other.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I can take cynicism a lot further than that Walt. So far, in fact, that I wouldn't dare put an example on A2K. It's okay in the pub with the right crowd.

And I can do so in support of the surveillance programs and the rapid expansion of their efficiency.

Possibly you have an anti-Christian outlook concerning the substance of the human material and like to read the thoughts of someone who plays it to you over and over, in slightly different guises, for cold cash.

Your writer is much over-cooked I would say. Too strained. No sense of proportion. Of course, as he is juggling and chucking a large number of twittering little saintly tweetie-pies he is perfectly entitled to be.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:56 pm
@RABEL222,
I've called names twice here in all the 11 years I'm here.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 01:56 pm
While the White House had refused to deny having spied on Merkel today, meanwhile ...
Quote:
Wednesday's news has revived scrutiny of Merkel's handling of previous allegations of NSA spying on German citizens.
"The report that the chancellor's mobile phone was also tapped shows how absurd the attempt was to end the debate about the surveillance of everyday communications in this country," Germany's commissioner for data protection and freedom of information, Peter Schaar, told the regional daily Mittelbayrische Zeitung.
"In light of the new revelations it was downright irresponsible not to have pushed harder to get to the truth," behind the allegations, Schaar added.
Schaar was referring to a statement issued by the head of the chancellery, Ronald Pofalla, back in August, when he publicly declared the controversy over alleged NSA spying activities in Germany to be over. The chancellor herself later made a similar statement in an interview with ZDF public television.
Source
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 02:18 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I wasent talking about you Walter. I was talking about the general attitude of many of the posters who think it shows how intelligent they are by insulting other posters and calling them names. I have to admit that at times I have also done this but I try to not do so but at times when under attack I revert. But I have identified those posters and just refuse to converse with them. It works for me. There are plenty of reasonable people on this site to talk with.
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 24 Oct, 2013 03:00 pm
Another US internet company shutting down as they in good faith can not function under current US laws.

Seems like the US government is doing a great job of forcing internet business off shore.

Quote:


http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/10/22/cryptoseal_yet_another_u_s_privacy_service_shuts_down.html

Yet another American Internet privacy service has bitten the dust, prompted by fears about broad government surveillance demands.

Ryan Gallagher
RYAN GALLAGHER

San Francisco-based CryptoSeal, a provider of virtual private networks that can be used to browse the Internet anonymously, has closed its doors to users of its private VPN service. In a statement posted online, CryptoSeal announced that a key factor in the closure was the government’s recently revealed attempt to force email provider Lavabit to turn over its private encryption keys. Lavabit shut down in August as part of an effort to resist a surveillance demand believed to involve NSA whistle-blower Edward Snowden, who was a Lavabit customer. Lavabit was ordered to turn over its master encryption keys in a way that could have potentially compromised thousands of users’ private data.

In an email interview Tuesday, CryptoSeal co-founder Ryan Lackey told me that the company had not received any similar government order. Rather, he decided to take pre-emptive action after reading court documents in the Lavabit case showing the government’s aggressive surveillance tactics related to so-called “pen-register” law. Pen-register orders are used to gather metadata about a communication, such as the “to” and “from” fields in an email but not the actual content. Lavabit was served with a pen register order believed to be seeking information about Snowden’s email account—but the company’s encrypted systems meant that it could not immediately turn over the data demanded. This frustrated the feds and led them to seek a sweeping warrant demanding that Lavabit instead turn over the encryption keys. In response, Lavabit’s founder chose to shut down his website as he felt that the demand was unlawful and would have forced him to commit “massive commercial fraud.”

Thirty-four-year-old Lackey says he was comfortable with the pen-register legal standard as he previously understood it—but that has now changed. “The post-Lavabit interpretation of a pen register order being enough to compel complete turnover of the service, if that’s the most effective way for USG to get pen register data, is terrifying,” he says.

Other companies offering secure communications agree. The government’s handling of Lavabit also prompted Silent Circle to pre-emptively shut down its encrypted email service, leading to a mounting standoff between the government and sections of the American tech industry. But as the latest company to call out the feds’ snooping methods, CryptoSeal doesn’t appear to have taken the decision lightly—and certainly can’t be dismissed as some sort of government-baiting anarchist outfit looking to jump on the bandwagon. Indeed, according to the CryptoSeal’s website, Lackey is more familiar with being an ally, not an opponent, of the U.S. government. He has done contract work for the U.S. Army, the website says, and also helped set up a satellite network serving the U.S. and coalition governments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

CryptoSeal is still offering VPNs to users of its business service because, according to Lackey, the government “already has the unilateral right to inspect traffic at any time” in the field of regulated industries. In addition, he says, system administrators at companies using VPNs want to monitor their traffic for antivirus and other malicious activity. But private users of CryptoSeal, of which Lackey says there were fewer than 1,000, will have to seek new VPN providers as the company feels it can no longer offer them a secure service. CryptoSeal is planning to work on a way to implement new technical measures that will notify its private VPN users if changes are made to configuration—giving them a heads up if there was a Lavabit-style court order in place, for instance. But the changes aren’t expected until mid- to late-2014.

“Until then,” says Lackey, “we recommend individuals use offshore services.”

Ryan Gallagher is a journalist who reports from the intersection of surveillance, national security, and privacy for Slate's Future Tense blog. He is also a Future Tense fellow at the New America Foundation.


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