42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 05:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I appreciate you feeling that way...and that is your right, Olivier.

You sure? did you run that through legal?

You don't need to read me my miranda right in every single post, Frank. I am well aware that I am entitled to my opinion. And even if the 'laws of the land' forbade me to share my opinion, I would still do it... The laws are made to protect us, not to exploit us. Screw unjust laws.

If you had to break the law to save lives -- eg break into a private property to shelter people from a hurricane -- would you do it? I know I would, and damn the law.

Snowden has done a great service to your society, and if you weren't such a bitter, narrow minded ingrate, you'd be thanking him for it.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 06:21 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Snowden has done a great service to your society,

I disagree. All he has done is compromise vital programs that are trying to save us from being massacred.
revelette
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 06:35 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
If you had to break the law to save lives -- eg break into a private property to shelter people from a hurricane -- would you do it? I know I would, and damn the law.


If that were the only readily available shelter, then I would too. However, I would then stay around to explain and talk to the owner and see if I needed to make any kind of restitutions, not run and hide and make the owner pay for any damage being done to his property while he gone.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 06:38 am
@oralloy,
It really is sweet of you oralloy to think the government gives a **** about a massacre or two. Excepting how it might exploit them in the furtherance of its fundamental objective. Power is addictive.

You sound like a Yes sir/ No sir man. Doesn't all progress come from Nays.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 06:46 am
Quote:
Facebook, Microsoft, Google, Yahoo! and Twitter argue transparency will encourage debate over surveillance powers

Britain needs to have a full public debate about the scale of internet surveillance to give confidence that state powers are not being abused, the world's five biggest internet companies have told MPs.

In a joint memo, Facebook, Microsoft, Google, Yahoo! and Twitter have called for the UK government to allow greater transparency about requests for them to hand over data on their users.

Their evidence to the home affairs select committee comes after the Guardian's revelations about the scale of mass surveillance by the security services in the US and UK based on leaked documents from the whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The files reveal that GCHQ has been tapping subsea fibre-optic cables to get access to vast quantities of internet traffic under its Tempora programme. They also disclose that the US National Security Agency has been collecting data directly from the servers of some internet companies, including search history, the content of emails, file transfers and live chats, although the firms deny this is done with their knowledge.

In their memo to MPs, the internet companies do not specifically mention the Snowden leaks but refer to growing public concern about surveillance issues.

"We recommend that requests for user data made by the UK government are made as transparent as possible," they say. "Each of our companies already publishes a transparency report and, as public concern grows around the world about the scale of digital surveillance, we believe that greater transparency is important in encouraging a full public debate and maintaining confidence that powers are not being abused."

It is signed by Emma Ascroft, director of public policy at Yahoo! Europe; Becky Foreman, head of government affairs at Microsoft UK; Theo Bertram, public policy manager at Google UK; Sinead McSweeney, director of public policy for Europe at Twitter; and Simon Milner, director of public policy at Facebook UK.

Their comments echo calls for more transparency about state data requests in the US, where there has been a storm of political debate about the revelations and a series of follow-up investigations that have forced the Obama administration to consider reforms. Internet companies have been engaged in that US debate.

The UK authorities have been slower to respond and David Cameron has condemned the Guardian for endangering national security by publishing information from Snowden.
Source and more: Internet firms urge more transparency over UK requests for user data
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 06:57 am
@revelette,
Quote:
However, I would then stay around to explain and talk to the owner and see if I needed to make any kind of restitutions, not run and hide and make the owner pay for any damage being done

Even if the owner was likely to torture you for months on end and then jail you for several decades? Are you a masochist?

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 08:38 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
But the laws of the land do not give you the right to judge that the government has done something that allows its citizens to do whatever they want.


Nor does the law of the land IE the constitution allow government officers to break the constitution ban on illegal searches and seizures at their whim or to openly lied to the congress under oath for that matter.

Until the government officers clean up their act and start to obey the constitution they have zero moral right to bring charges against a whistle blower over this matter such as Snowdon.

When the Director of National Intelligence James Clapper is put on trial for lying to congress for example I will feel more kindly to your position that Snowman should allow himself to be try for his actions.


That may be your opinion. I do not share it...and the poll I linked to shows that a majority of Americans agree with my way of thinking.

Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 08:40 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Hey...c'mon. Tell me if you've seen any good movies lately.


No.

When are you going to answer the question about whether you think PRISM should have remained a secret?

When are you going to address the matter of the "chilling effect" which caused the collapse of the East German government? Fortunately for East German citizens a rescue was near at hand. What will rescue the US from the "chilling effect"?

Everybody with any mildly serious interest in these matters knows that the main enemy of government is the governed and that the main enemy of the governed is the government.

No PRISM was needed to detect the Boston bombers. The Russians had warned US intelligence about them.


As soon as you show an inclination to speak respectfully to me.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 08:42 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I appreciate you feeling that way...and that is your right, Olivier.

You sure? did you run that through legal?

You don't need to read me my miranda right in every single post, Frank. I am well aware that I am entitled to my opinion. And even if the 'laws of the land' forbade me to share my opinion, I would still do it... The laws are made to protect us, not to exploit us. Screw unjust laws.

If you had to break the law to save lives -- eg break into a private property to shelter people from a hurricane -- would you do it? I know I would, and damn the law.

Snowden has done a great service to your society, and if you weren't such a bitter, narrow minded ingrate, you'd be thanking him for it.



You sound a good deal more bitter than I, Olivier.

I appears that Snowden has broken some serious laws...and has been charged with doing so.

I think he should get a fair trial...and I chalk up the hero worship to people who get off on savaging "government."
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
Naa, you're the bitter, scared, narrowly legalistic and vengeance-bent guy around here. You sound like a broken record, too. And that's your right, Frank... Smile

No worship here. It should be fairly obvious that the disclosures by Snowden have done a service to the US and the world: that of putting the issue on the table and hopefully leading to some restraint being imposed on illegal data theft by the US government.

See? Everything's cool. Smile now...
JPB
 
  2  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:01 am
Quote:
The director of the National Security Agency and his deputy are expected to depart in the coming months, US officials said on Wednesday, in a development that could give President Obama a chance to reshape the eavesdropping agency.

Army general Keith Alexander's eight-year tenure was rocked this year by revelations contained in documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden about the agency's widespread scooping up of telephone, email and social media data.

Alexander has formalized plans to leave by next March or April, while his civilian deputy, Chris Inglis, is due to retire by year's end, according to US officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Guardian
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:13 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Naa, you're the bitter, scared, narrowly legalistic and vengeance-bent guy around here. You sound like a broken record, too. And that's your right, Frank... Smile


You certainly have a right to think that, Olivier. But honestly, you do sound a lot more bitter than I.

Quote:
No worship here. It should be fairly obvious that the disclosures by Snowden have done a service to the US and the world...


What should be fairly obvious is that there were both positive and negative values to the disclosures...and many people, myself included, think that hte negative impact greatly exceeds the perceived positive impact. You certainly have a right to think he did a great service to the US and the world...but I think he has done a great disservice to both.

Quote:


See? Everything's cool. Smile now...


I've had a smile on my face the entire conversation, Olivier. Glad you finally have one also.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:15 am
@JPB,
Isn't it ironic. We're talking about our countries government breaking laws, and now people believe who revealed the breaking of those laws as the bad guy.

We're supposed to be a country of laws. Snowden revealed that our country was breaking laws against our Constitution that provides safety for its citizens.

I don't understand what all this argument is about.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:29 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I don't understand what all this argument is about.

Frank's national pride has been damaged and he needs a scapegoat.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:32 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Isn't it ironic. We're talking about our countries government breaking laws, and now people believe who revealed the breaking of those laws as the bad guy.

We're supposed to be a country of laws. Snowden revealed that our country was breaking laws against our Constitution that provides safety for its citizens.

I don't understand what all this argument is about.


Perhaps the reason you do not understand, ci, is because of some possibly false assumptions you are making.

You are assuming that "our country" is "breaking laws against our Constitution."

I suspect you meant that "the government" is breaking those laws.

But you are not the arbiter of whether or not the government is breaking laws or not...and neither is Snowden. That power is vested (inferentially) in the Supreme Court of the United States.

Has SCOTUS ruled that the government IS breaking any laws by doing what Snowden has revealed it has been doing?

I don't think so.

You also appear to be making an assumption that any individual can just decide the government is doing something wrong...and can steal secret documents and release them indiscriminately to "expose" what they see to be "the wrong."

That may be a false assumption in this instance.

The way to find that out...is to charge Snowden with a crime for doing what he has done (which is what the government has done)...and have a fair trial on the issue.

The irony would be gone...and you might gain an understanding of what this argument is all about.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:34 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I don't understand what all this argument is about.

Frank's national pride has been damaged and he needs a scapegoat.



That is nonsense. I am probably more an Internationalist than most people in this forum. I am making a rational, logical argument for why this is not as cut and dry as some of you would have it be. And I am doing it without all the suggestions as to motive that you seem unable to avoid.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
What should be fairly obvious is that there were both positive and negative values to the disclosures...and many people, myself included, think that hte negative impact greatly exceeds the perceived positive impact.

Don't feel too bad about it, it's going to be all right. And if you're lucky, maybe Snowden will get a fair trial in the Hague in a few years...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:37 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
What should be fairly obvious is that there were both positive and negative values to the disclosures...and many people, myself included, think that hte negative impact greatly exceeds the perceived positive impact.

Don't feel too bad about it, it's going to be all right. And if you're lucky, maybe Snowden will get a fair trial in the Hague in a few years...


Oh, I suspect he will get a fair trial right here in the United States a bit sooner.

Hope you still have your smile on your face. Wink
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
It would be more rational if you could address all issues raised including the wrongdoings of the US government. Narrowly focusing on Snowden's alleged crimes is irrational.
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 18 Oct, 2013 09:39 am
Quote:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/17/eu-rules-data-us-edward-snowden




New European rules aimed at curbing questionable transfers of data from EU countries to the US are being finalised in Brussels in the first concrete reaction to the Edward Snowden disclosures on US and British mass surveillance of digital communications.

Regulations on European data protection standards are expected to pass the European parliament committee stage on Monday after the various political groupings agreed on a new compromise draft following two years of gridlock on the issue.

The draft would make it harder for the big US internet servers and social media providers to transfer European data to third countries, subject them to EU law rather than secret American court orders, and authorise swingeing fines possibly running into the billions for the first time for not complying with the new rules.

"As parliamentarians, as politicians, as governments we have lost control over our intelligence services. We have to get it back again," said Jan Philipp Albrecht, the German Greens MEP who is steering the data protection regulation through the parliament.

Data privacy in the EU is currently under the authority of national governments with standards varying enormously across the 28 countries, complicating efforts to arrive at satisfactory data transfer agreements with the US. The current rules are easily sidestepped by the big Silicon Valley companies, Brussels argues.

The new rules, if agreed, would ban the transfer of data unless based on EU law or under a new transatlantic pact with the Americans complying with EU law.

"Without any concrete agreement there would be no data processing by telecommunications and internet companies allowed," says a summary of the proposed new regime.

Such bans were foreseen in initial wording two years ago but were dropped under the pressure of intense lobbying from Washington. The proposed ban has been revived directly as a result of the uproar over operations by the US's National Security Agency (NSA).

Viviane Reding, the EU's commissioner for justice and the leading advocate in Brussels of a new system securing individuals' rights to privacy and data protection, argues that the new rulebook will rebalance the power relationship between the US and Europe on the issue, supplying leverage to force the American authorities and tech firms to reform.

"The recent data scandals prove that sensitivity has been growing on the US side of how important data protection really is for Europeans," she told a German foreign policy journal. "All those US companies that do dominate the tech market and the internet want to have access to our goldmine, the internal market with over 500 million potential customers. If they want to access it, they will have to apply our rules. The leverage that we will have in the near future is thus the EU's data protection regulation. It will make crystal clear that non-European companies, when offering goods and services to European consumers, will have to apply the EU data protection law in full. There will be no legal loopholes any more."

But the proposed rules remain riddled with loopholes for intelligence services to exploit, MEPs admit.

The EU has no powers over national or European security, for example, nor its own proper intelligence or security services, which are jealously guarded national prerogatives. National security can be and is invoked to ignore and bypass EU rules.

"This regulation does not regulate the work of intelligence services," said Albrecht. "Of course, national security is a huge loophole and we need to close it. But we can't close it with this regulation."

Direct deals between the Americans and individual European governments might also allow the rules to be bypassed.

Parallel to the proposed data privacy rules, there are various other transatlantic arrangements in place regulating European supply to the Americans of air passenger data, financial transactions and banking information aimed at suppressing terrorism funding and the so-called Safe Harbour accord allowing companies in Europe to send data to companies in the US where, as a result of Snowden, it is clear that that data can then be tapped by the NSA.

"The Safe Harbour may not be so safe after all. It could be a loophole because it allows data transfers from EU to US companies, although US data protection standards are lower than our European ones," said Reding. "Safe Harbour is based on self-regulation and codes of conduct. In the light of the recent revelations, I am not convinced that relying on codes of conduct and self-regulation that are not policed in a strict manner offer the best way of protecting our citizens."

The European commission is warning that it could suspend all these agreements unless the US commits to a new regime, but the commission's threats would also run into trouble with national governments, not least the British.

Brussels and Washington have also been negotiating a deal on police data exchanges for two years, but the talks are deadlocked because there is no legal redress for an EU citizen in the US courts if the system is abused.

Under the proposed new rules, the commission is calling for fines of up to 2% of a company's annual global turnover if it is found to be in breach, while the parliament calls for up to 5%.

Senior officials in Brussels describe the current penalties as a joke for mega-companies such as Google or Yahoo. The US-based companies, even when breaking European law, officials say, simply argue that they are not subject to it despite operating in Europe, while they are subject to the secret court orders of the US Fisa system facilitating the work of the NSA.

"On the basis of the US Patriot Act, US authorities are asking US companies based in Europe to hand over the data of EU citizens. This is however – according to EU law – illegal," said Reding. "The problem is that when these companies are faced with a request whether to comply with EU or US law, they will usually opt for the American law. Because in the end this is a question of power."

If the new rules are agreed next week by the parliament, they still need to be negotiated with the commission, which broadly supports them, and the 28 governments.

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