Snowdon is a dummy

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm not sure how you arrived at
Quote:
all this hate of government is getting out of hand.

It's the government who isn't showing its citizens any respect - by keeping their promise to uphold the Constitution. How many Constitutional protections are you willing to give up? Me? NONE.

Okay...allow me to change it.

It is my opinion that all this hate and distrust of government...started by Ronald Reagan...is getting out of hand.

It simply is an opinion, ci. If you do not share it, I understand.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

It is my opinion that all this hate and distrust of government...started by Ronald Reagan...is getting out of hand.

I doubt very much the current breakdown in government is related to Reagan.
The Tea Party is a "new" extremist group of the GOP that has taken hold of the republican party in congress. Cruz and Palin are there to raise the ire of bigots (black president) and women haters. How he managed to lead the entire congress to almost ruin for this country is for the record books.

We'll have to wait until future elections to see if anything changes.

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@Frank Apisa,

It's not about right or wrong, it's about you being disingenuous with other posters. What you really want is vindication, because Snowden somehow hurt your national pride by spilling the beans in China and Russia. The US has admitted that it spied on its own people, on its own allies and, in the case of Brasil, their petroleum companies... And you want the guilty Snowden to be held accountable for revealing it all? All under the frail disguise of "a fair trial"... That IS downright disingenuous, sorry. Get your priorities right.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

An the so call secret court had stated that they need to take the word of the intelligence community so what damn oversight?

Do you have a proposal for a better form of oversight (that would not compromise the ability to gather intelligence)?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

It's not about right or wrong, it's about you being disingenuous with other posters. What you really want is vindication, because Snowden somehow hurt your national pride by spilling the beans in China and Russia. The US has admitted that it spied on its own people, on its own allies and, in the case of Brasil, their petroleum companies... And you want the guilty Snowden to be held accountable for revealing it all? All under the frail disguise of "a fair trial"... That IS downright disingenuous, sorry. Get your priorities right.

I agree that Frank Apisa always lies.

However, this isn't so much about hurting our pride as it is that these are vital national secrets that need to remain secret.

We were not spying on Brazil's private industry. Brazil always likes to disguise their malfeasance with bogus claims about "protecting their industry".

For what it's worth, I don't want this Snowden scumbag brought to trial. I want the US government to just kill him.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

It simply is an opinion, ci. If you do not share it, I understand.

Why then don't you simply stop giving all these uniformed opinions, Frank?

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

distrust of government...started by Ronald Reagan...is getting out of hand.

The distrust of government begin not with Reagan but the founding fathers nd the bill of rights was added to the constitution due to that concern.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Do you have a proposal for a better form of oversight (that would not compromise the ability to gather intelligence)?

Sure first do not allow them the infrastructure[software/hardware] to spy on US citizens in mass, as just because something can be done with enough billions does not means it should be done.

Set up a watchdog group that is not part of the government who charter is to made damn sure the constitution is not disregarded and with complete access to what the intelligence community is doing. Oh they would have all the resources needed to understand and monitor the NSA themselves without needing to take the word of NSA at least to the same degree that the NSA have to monitor all of us.

The group would report to the courts/congress/President and to a lessor degree to the american people.

For added safety have all the massive data that is generated not under the control of NSA but under control of this watchdog group.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

It's not about right or wrong, it's about you being disingenuous with other posters. What you really want is vindication, because Snowden somehow hurt your national pride by spilling the beans in China and Russia. The US has admitted that it spied on its own people, on its own allies and, in the case of Brasil, their petroleum companies... And you want the guilty Snowden to be held accountable for revealing it all? All under the frail disguise of "a fair trial"... That IS downright disingenuous, sorry. Get your priorities right.

Nonsense. It seems to be you with the hurt pride, because someone is giving a rational argument opposite from the point of view you are taking.

The United States government has charged that Snowden has broken US laws...and Snowden's conduct seems to indicate that in fact he has broken some laws.

But the government is charged with PROVING that Snowden has broken these laws in a court of law...before a jury of his peers. And if Snowden is tried on these charges, he will undoubtedly have a defense team of the finest lawyers now working on this planet.

I want him to stand trial on the charges brought by the government...a fair trial.

I have no idea of why you find that disingenuous, Olivier, unless you want, like some of the others here, to instead award Snowden a medal for apparently stealing secrets from our government and making them public.

You and the others have a right to feel that way...I acknowledge that. I have not called you names because you feel that way...I have not called you liar, called you disingenuous, or suggested you are naive.

But you have called me a liar and charged me with being disingenuous for having an opinion in the opposite direction of yours.

Yours, Olivier, is the "frail disguise." You are the one who ought be looking to your "priorities."

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

But the government is charged with PROVING that Snowden has broken these laws in a court of law...before a jury of his peers. And if Snowden is tried on these charges, he will undoubtedly have a defense team of the finest lawyers now working on this planet.

If the US wants to trial Snowden, it will need to prove to the Russian that it can organise a fair trial. That is almost impossible given the circumstances. The NSA/CIA would spy on your defence team, knowing in advance their every move. The media will howl for Snowden's head. Good sheeples like you will want blood, and Snowden will go to jail for two hundred years. And all this for what? To protect a government spying on the whole world...

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Realize this is off topic, but did you catch Bill Maher's opinion of Ronald Reagan being the original tea bagger?

Bill Maher Savages Reagan: ‘The Original Teabagger,’ ‘Pitchman For Batsh*t’ Would Do Well In Modern GOP

I agree with you on this subject as you know so no need to keep going over it again and again.

On Snowden, as they say, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

If you are arguing that these matters should not have been given a public airing and that the spooks should be allowed to secretly proceed on their merry way using evermore sophisticated technology then you have a point.

Are you arguing that? Yes or no?

You are being disingenuous if you don't answer that question or the one that raised the matter of the NSA program being contrary to national interests. And you are being naive keep bleating about a fair trial when you know that there is no chance of Snowden getting one. You have declared him guilty yourself.

It is not calling you names--it is stating simple facts.

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@spendius,

I think if he had concerns he could have voiced them without copying lots of sensitive government information and taking it out of the country. There are people in congress he could have went to with his concerns who have interest in privacy vs. security. He could have joined with other people who have his same concerns and perhaps started a movement or something. He shouldn't have copied that information and taken it with him, imo.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
But the government is charged with PROVING that Snowden has broken these laws in a court of law...before a jury of his peers. And if Snowden is tried on these charges, he will undoubtedly have a defense team of the finest lawyers now working on this planet.

If the US wants to trial Snowden, it will need to prove to the Russian that it can organise a fair trial. That is almost impossible given the circumstances. The NSA/CIA would spy on your defence team, knowing in advance their every move. The media will howl for Snowden's head. Good sheeples like you will want blood, and Snowden will go to jail for two hundred years. And all this for what? To protect a government spying on the whole world...

I want Snowden to get a fair trial. You apparently fear that.

1 Reply

@revelette,

revelette wrote:

Realize this is off topic, but did you catch Bill Maher's opinion of Ronald Reagan being the original tea bagger?

Bill Maher Savages Reagan: ‘The Original Teabagger,’ ‘Pitchman For Batsh*t’ Would Do Well In Modern GOP

I agree with you on this subject as you know so no need to keep going over it again and again.

On Snowden, as they say, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Thanks, Revelette. I have not seen the Maher piece...but anyone who does not see that Reagan (perhaps unwittingly) was the father of all this hatred and distrust of government that is tearing our nation to shreds.

And you are hitting the nail squarely on its head with the, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. "

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

If you are arguing that these matters should not have been given a public airing and that the spooks should be allowed to secretly proceed on their merry way using evermore sophisticated technology then you have a point.

Are you arguing that? Yes or no?

I am arguing that Snowden was not elected by anyone to disclose government secrets...that he apparently broke some serious laws...and that he deserves a fair trial.

Quote:

You are being disingenuous if you don't answer that question or the one that raised the matter of the NSA program being contrary to national interests. And you are being naive keep bleating about a fair trial when you know that there is no chance of Snowden getting one. You have declared him guilty yourself.

It is not calling you names--it is stating simple facts.

If you feel better having charged me with being disingenuous and naive and bleating...great. I want you to feel as good about yourself as possible.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Never mind that woffle in the service of you feeling good about yourself and answer the question.

Are you arguing that these matters should not have been given a public airing?

Yes or no. It's simple enough.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Never mind that woffle in the service of you feeling good about yourself and answer the question.

Are you arguing that these matters should not have been given a public airing?

Yes or no. It's simple enough.

When you decide you can show me a bit of respect when asking questions and discussing matters with me, Spendius, we will continue discussing serious matters.

Until then...have you seen any good movies lately?

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@Frank Apisa,

Certainly they'll get a fair trial Wink

Quote:

New EU rules to curb transfer of data to US after Edward Snowden revelations
Regulations will make it harder to move European data to third countries, with fines running into billions for failure to comply

New European rules aimed at curbing questionable transfers of data from EU countries to the US are being finalised in Brussels in the first concrete reaction to the Edward Snowden disclosures on US and British mass surveillance of digital communications.

Regulations on European data protection standards are expected to pass the European parliament committee stage on Monday after the various political groupings agreed on a new compromise draft following two years of gridlock on the issue.

The draft would make it harder for the big US internet servers and social media providers to transfer European data to third countries, subject them to EU law rather than secret American court orders, and authorise swingeing fines possibly running into the billions for the first time for not complying with the new rules.
[...]

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

So you don't answer questions after all. You don't deserve any respect.

Loss of nerve is your real reason. You're frit to answer Yes and you're frit to answer No.

The East German experience of a spy in every house and workplace went tits up. It destroyed morale and had to be rescued from its own destructive possibilities.

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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