42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:08 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The declaration has not changed, Thomas...but the reality of a right of privacy has.

Again: just because a government increasingly violates your rights, that doesn't mean you stop having them. I agree that the United States is violating the human right to privacy to a much greater degree than it did in 1948. And yes, that's what this thread is about. But how does that change the validity of people's claim on this right?


They can claim anything they want, Thomas. The reality is that "the right to privacy" does not exist as it once did.

You want confirmation...read this thread.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
The reality is that "the right to privacy" does not exist as it once did.
The right DOES exist. And it exist as it existed once. See Thomas' links.
BillRM
 
  2  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:20 pm
Here some more information.


Quote:


http://www.zdnet.com/news/spy-agency-taps-into-undersea-cable/115877

At the bottom of the sea
Undersea fiber-optic cables are sheathed in a thick steel husk and buried in a yard-deep trench. But once the water depth exceeds 1,000 feet, they usually are left to run uncovered along the ocean floor. Industry experts believe the NSA tap must have occurred in deep waters far out at sea, where the cable would be exposed and the risks of being seen would be lower. Some cable operators make frequent surveillance flights hundreds of miles from shore, mainly to keep track of fishing boats whose nets or anchors might rip their cables.

Former intelligence officials say the agency made its tap with the help of a customized sub. "It's a submarine capable of bringing a length of cable inside a special chamber, where the men then do the work," while the sub hugs the ocean floor, says one former official. The surface ships used by undersea-cable companies to install and repair cables have similar chambers--called jointing rooms--where crews work on the delicate fibers. When repairing a broken cable, cable companies generally lift one end of the rupture to the surface and into the jointing room, splice in a new length of cable, then lift the other end of the rupture and repeat the process.

In 1997, the NSA and the Navy proposed equipping the USS Jimmy Carter with such a chamber, as part of a "special operations" upgrade to the $2.4 billion sub.

Worth the gains?
Some members of Congress doubted that the cost of the upgrade would be worth the intelligence gains. And, in closed meetings with lawmakers on Capitol Hill, several top intelligence officials in the Clinton administration fought to kill the project. They lost the battle in late 1998, when Congress agreed to enlarge the sub to accommodate what the Navy called "advanced technology for naval special warfare and tactical surveillance." Plans called for the upgrade to include facilities that would enable the NSA to tap undersea cables, people familiar with it say. The Navy declines to discuss details of the retrofit, which is now under way. The vessel's intended mission could have been modified.

Norman Polmar, a naval and intelligence expert, says any undersea tapping probably would be done in a custom-designed chamber that detaches from the sub. "The Navy would not be keen on bringing a high-voltage cable into a submarine," says Polmar, a part-time consultant to Congress and the Pentagon who has followed the submarine project closely. Moreover, he says, "Having a cable running through a sub for a day or more would tie the sub down in a way that could endanger lives."

He says the USS Jimmy Carter is meant to have "lock-out capability" to allow divers to leave and enter the sub. Plans also call for special thrusters that will allow the vessel to hover near the ocean floor for long periods, a technology that would enable it to supply oxygen and power to an undersea chamber.

The USS Jimmy Carter is expected to replace the USS Parche, a Cold War-era sub used extensively to spy on the Soviets. The Parche, set for retirement in 2003, tapped a number of undersea Soviet copper cables during the 1970s and 1980s, according to the 1998 book "Blind Man's Bluff," a history of submarine-based spying written by Sherry Sontag and Christopher Drew. The NSA declines to comment.

The Parche is equipped with a claw-like device to pluck fairly large objects off the ocean floor. The sub used in the NSA tap probably was fitted with a similar system used to lift the cable into the jointing room, which would then have been emptied of water, experts say.

"This wouldn't be any ordinary submarine," says Marc Dodeman, an engineer with Margus Co., of Edison, N.J., a pioneer in undersea-cable installation and repair. "It would have to have some way to take in a cable, while sitting on the ocean floor, without leaking water. That would require some intense engineering."

Technicians fixing a damaged cable usually make such repairs above water and under antiseptic conditions. Dust or seawater in the submerged chamber could ruin an exposed fiber. Making a surreptitious tap of a live cable would also require circumventing the electrical charge--usually around 10,000 volts--which is used to power the devices that keep the speeding light beams strong.

"Exposing that electricity to the water, or severing it at all, would shut down the entire system," says Peter Runge, chief of research and development for TyCom Ltd., Morristown, N.J., one of the world's largest submarine cable companies and a majority-owned unit of Tyco International Ltd. The shutdown would defeat the tap and alert the cable operator that something was amiss, adds Runge, making the odds of success extremely small. TyCom and its rivals say that any interruptions or outages they have experienced were caused by fishermen's nets, anchors--or, in earlier days, shark bites--but none of the circumstances suggested tampering.

There are basically two ways to extract light, and thus data, from a fiber: by bending the fiber so that some light radiates through the fiber's thin polymer cladding, and by splicing the fiber, Runge says. Bending fiber is an imprecise science. The NSA tap probably required splicing a second fiber to each of the fibers, splitting the data into two identical streams.

But that would pose yet another problem. "Splice the line, and you cut off the light, at least momentarily," says Wayne Siddall, an optical engineer at Corning Fiber in Corning, N.Y. Even a second's interruption could be noticed by a cable's operator. Cable companies typically build systems with duplicate lines that take diverging routes, in case one of them is damaged or severed.

One retired NSA optical specialist insists that the NSA devised a way to splice a fiber without being detected. "Getting into fiber is delicate work, but by no means impossible," the former specialist says. Neither he nor the NSA will discuss the matter further.

After the tap had been completed, the hard work of interpreting the data began--and it proved difficult for the NSA, say those familiar with the project. "What we got was a blast of digital bits, like a fire hydrant spraying you in the face," says one former NSA technician with knowledge of the project. "It was the classic needle-in-the-haystack pursuit, except here the haystack starts out huge and grows by the second," the former technician says. NSA's computers simply weren't equipped to sort through so much data flying at them so fast.

That's not likely to change soon. The NSA long boasted some of the most powerful computers on earth. But the agency's technological edge dulled as the equipment aged and money grew tight. The NSA's budget is classified, but individuals familiar with it say it is about two-thirds what it was a decade ago, even before accounting for inflation.

At the same time, new undersea cables are carrying more and more information. A cable TyCom is laying across the Pacific will have the capacity to carry the equivalent of 100 million phone calls at a time.

Flag Telecom expects to throw the switch on a new trans-Atlantic cable this summer whose eight fibers will have the capacity to move more information than all the cables now crossing the Atlantic. Some computer experts say that the power to digest what will stream through the Flag cable could require a doubling of the NSA's computing power--and huge costs. The NSA's tapping project, from research to tap, cost hundreds of millions of dollars, individuals familiar with it say.

Yet the NSA's Lt. Gen. Hayden says he isn't discouraged. At the moment, he likes to say, technology is the NSA's enemy. But computing power will allow it to process greater masses of data, which he says he hopes will eventually "allow a single analyst to extract wisdom from vast volumes of raw information."

Topics: Fiber, Networking

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okies
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Cables in the 70's and earlier were copper and very easy to tap. Modern cables are fiber optics. Each line is exactly balanced so that they can use optical amplifiers and optical amplifiers and repeaters are built into the cable structure. Even adding a splice to the optical fiber will significantly change the fiber's attenuation and shift the balance between the loss in that fiber and the others in the cable. While finding the cable itself is not hard, finding the optical amplifiers and repeaters is very challenging. Repair ships today have to pull the fiber up from the bottom to do it. Once you find the cable, you have to cut through the waterproof layers and armor to get to the fine strands of optical fiber, splice into it then put it back together without damaging anything. A diver is not going to pull that off so you need that chamber Bill's article mentioned. Even to use that chamber, you have to have a matching length of cable and there are only a couple of companies in the world that do that work. Then the fiber has to match pretty much exactly. The manufacturer can do it because they can order the fiber they need and have the very special cable facilities to make it to order. Way too many finger prints there. You can still steal the signal, you just have to do it on land when the fiber comes up.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:32 pm
@engineer,
Well, that's how former crew members describe how's done on the USS Jimmy Carter: "the middle part of the boat is dedicated to spook stuff".
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:44 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The reality is that "the right to privacy" does not exist as it once did.
The right DOES exist. And it exist as it existed once. See Thomas' links.


So then what is bothering you guys?

If the right exists...exercise it.

Be as private as you want.

Walter, you know what I am talking about...and so does Thomas.

Privacy began to go away for individuals the moment civilization began.

The frontiersman no longer exist.

Yeah...you can want privacy...and some people can declare you have a right to it...

...but those same people can declare you have a right to be free from earthquakes and hurricanes if they want.

This entire privacy thing is being vastly overdone. The indignation is incomprehensible. You are doing your arguing on the Internet...and there is no privacy here. And the government IS going to monitor traffic to see if they can get a heads-up on terrorist activity.

They may not be successful...but they are going to give it a try.

And as Bill has told everyone...it is a piece of cake to defeat any attempts by the government to intrude on your privacy. N0 problem at all.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:45 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The reality is that "the right to privacy" does not exist as it once did.
The right DOES exist. And it exist as it existed once. See Thomas' links.


By the way...the "right" came into existence in the 1940's...out of thin air.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:51 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I don't doubt that. "Spooks" have been routine visitors on subs for years. But if you cut into a sub cable, people will know immediately. The precision design of a submarine optical fiber cable is amazing. It even uses special fiber. You can't just whip that stuff up. Much, much easier to steal info on land.

As for the Jimmy Carter, it doesn't surprise me that it has been refitted as a special ops boat. Old boomers were often refitted for special missions in the 80's pretty routinely. My old boss's boat did intelligence ops frequently.
BillRM
 
  2  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:56 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I don't doubt that. "Spooks" have been routine visitors on subs for years. But if you cut into a sub cable, people will know immediately. The precision design of a submarine optical fiber cable is amazing. It even uses special fiber. You can't just whip that stuff up. Much, much easier to steal info on land.


You do not need to break it to tap it and once more when you have the ability to build nuclear subs just to do the task and you surely can just whip the fiber up or at least contract the people who do such tasks to created it for you.

Quote:
There are basically two ways to extract light, and thus data, from a fiber: by bending the fiber so that some light radiates through the fiber's thin polymer cladding, and by splicing the fiber, Runge says. Bending fiber is an imprecise science. The NSA tap probably required splicing a second fiber to each of the fibers, splitting the data into two identical streams.



This is the USA with all the resources of the last super power behind it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 12:58 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
My old boss's boat did intelligence ops frequently.
I did the same Wink

-------

From a recent article @ Deutsche Welle
Quote:
Wire-tapping contest under the ocean
Hacking a cable only makes sense if you have large server capacity immediately available, which is why Langer is skeptical of recent media speculation about the USS Jimmy Carter, a nuclear submarine said to be on a mission to tap underwater cables. "It seems bizarre," said Langer.
But Peter Franck, spokesman for the Chaos Computer Club digital rights collective, considers the submarine reports "absolutely believable." Though tapping underwater cables is so secret "that it would never be publicly talked about," so far reports in the American media have not been denied by the government.

Franck can imagine a number of ways in which data could be moved from the submarine to servers on shore. He speculates, for instance, that the data could be pre-filtered on board and then broadcast to a base via the normal radio communication. Or a device that records the data could be left on the ocean floor. "An extra vehicle could then come and pick it up," Franck suggested.
Such underwater cables are certainly of considerable interest to intelligence agencies, since a huge part of international communication travels through them. It could certainly be the case that a lot of the world's fiber optic cables are being tapped - and not only in countries where respective intelligence agencies are based.
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 01:24 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And as Bill has told everyone...it is a piece of cake to defeat any attempts by the government to intrude on your privacy. N0 problem at all.


It is a piece of cake for aware people that is however a small percent of all users and due to it being able to be block by aware terrorists mean that what the government is doing is not aim at them but at the generation public.
revelette
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 01:33 pm
@BillRM,
I guess terrorist are not as "aware" as you and the government knows that so that means they are really only after you.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 01:40 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
And as Bill has told everyone...it is a piece of cake to defeat any attempts by the government to intrude on your privacy. N0 problem at all.


It is a piece of cake for aware people that is however a small percent of all users and due to it being able to be block by aware terrorists mean that what the government is doing is not aim at them but at the generation public.


Well...can't the "generation public" look to geniuses like you to help them defeat the stupid United States of America?

If it is easy for you to do...do you really think everyone else is so much dumber than you that it would be difficult for them to master?

Among the "generation public" I mean.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 01:44 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
I guess terrorist are not as "aware" as you and the government knows that so that means they are really only after you.


Nonsense as the terrorists English language Inspire Magazine have details information on the science and art of encrypted communications.

The government is using terrorism as an excused to spy on the mass of the human race that is on line, but that all it is an excused.

engineer
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 02:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Radio to transmit the data feed from a fiber cable? That's pretty humorous.

There is still an assumption that tapping a fiber line is like tapping a copper line. You actually have cut the fiber to splice in a new section and the new section has to be very compatible with the existing system. A small error and the entire line goes black and without access to at least one end of the system you can't test line performance.

What boat were you on?

revelette
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 02:22 pm
@BillRM,
You know I can accept that people think this vast data spying is both unconstitutional and ineffective but I can't accept that government really has no interest in going after terrorist in the first place but wants to read our online chats and emails just because they are bunch of nosey roseys.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 02:31 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

What boat were you on?
During the time as a conscript on a coastal minesweeper (Bluebird class without the upper deck of bridge).

We did four weeks "surveillance" on the Baltic Sea. (Me photographing etc etc any "red" boat, vessel, ship).
And doing "this" (fishing) and "that" (playing cops and robbers with the equivalent GDR-boat).
And we most probably have been the only Western warship which entered the GDR-3-miles-zone.
(As the navigator, I'd tried to avoid that but since that poor guy couldn't swim anymore, I "shifted" the border a bit [about a cable]).

As a reserve officer, I've been (besides other units) for four weeks on that one on the photo: a "communication spotting boat", Oste.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 02:32 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
What boat were you on?

I suppose you have a minuscule chance if intercontinental cables have regenerators where the optical signal is converted to an electrical signal and back. But even then you can tap the electrical signal in the regenerator, you still have Terabytes per second of raw bits and bytes of unknown formats, some of them compressed and encrypted, that you have to parse and make sense of in a submarine computer. I agree with you --- it seems like a Rube-Goldberg way of gathering intelligence. But the NSA appears to have too much money on its hands, so maybe Revelette's source is on to something.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 02:35 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
but wants to read our online chats and emails just because they are bunch of nosey roseys.


Online chat and email and all manner of business communications of both US and foreign companies just to start with. An such information as the position foreign governments are going to take on trade negotiations ETC.

Then the personal lives of people in power that could be used in the same manner as Hoover used against presidents and congress members for a few generations.

Having something on a SC judge or two might be helpful to an administration also or knowing that someone such as Bill Gates in cheating on his wife for that matter.
RABEL222
 
  -1  
Fri 23 Aug, 2013 03:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
This is what gets me Frank. Business in the world has been spying on private citizens for 100 years or more but no one got excited about it. By this reasoning governments can contract private companies to do their spying for them and this would be legal?
 

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