Snowdon is a dummy

@Walter Hinteler,

So you believe that the US and the UK is breaking international law of human dignity with the under water surveillance and other tools which gathers up huge data rather than tracking potential terrorist only? If you are right, and privacy is actually covered under international law (beyond me to know) then I suppose you are correct.

1 Reply

@revelette,

revelette wrote:

So you believe that the US and the UK is breaking international law of human dignity with the under water surveillance?

Yes.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

How did it become a "basic right?"

As I pointed out in my answer to Revelette, the United States recognized it as a basic human right in 1948, when it signed (not to mention drafted) the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. You're the one rejecting the facts to protect your opinion here.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

revelette wrote:
So you believe that the US and the UK is breaking international law of human dignity with the under water surveillance?

Yes.

I second that.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
How did it become a "basic right?"

As I pointed out in my answer to Revelette, the United States recognized it as a basic human right in 1948, when it signed (not to mention drafted) the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. You're the one rejecting the facts to protect your opinion.

I am not rejecting any facts, Thomas. I am trying to point out that it is an arbitrary decision of humans to designate that “privacy is an important part of liberty, and as such is “a basic human right.” As times change and situations change, adjustments in thinking can logically and reasonably be made.

Owning slaves was once a basic human right in the United States. It was, in effect, codified by a lack of exclusion.

Times changed…and that “basic human right” ceased to exist.

Significant parts of the right of privacy have ceased to exist…and more are going with each passing day.

You are the one rejecting facts to protect your opinion, Thomas.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

How did it become a "basic right?"

Did some god make it so...like a god "endowed" Americans with certain inalienable rights?

Actually, it dates back to the French revolution and even earlier. (Privacy in letters/communication was first noted in Germany in 1690 [in the "Josephinischen Wahlkapitulation"], punishable with being beaten at the pranger and eviction of the country.)
The Commission on Human Rights, which drafted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) , was let "by Eleanor Roosevelt’s forceful leadership".

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Significant parts of the right of privacy have ceased to exist…and more are going with each passing day.

Nope. The United States is still a signatory of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and article 12 of this declaration still says what it's been saying since 1948:

In article 12, the authors of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights wrote:

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Source

Just because the United States is increasingly violating human rights abroad doesn't mean that its victims have forfeited them.

3 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

It is ridiculously hard to see how anyone can tap into a submarine cable without being detected or completely ruining it. Much more likely they will tap into the electronics where the cable lands.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

How did it become a "basic right?"

Did some god make it so...like a god "endowed" Americans with certain inalienable rights?

Actually, it dates back to the French revolution and even earlier. (Privacy in letters/communication was first noted in Germany in 1690 [in the "Josephinischen Wahlkapitulation"], punishable with being beaten at the pranger and eviction of the country.)
The Commission on Human Rights, which drafted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) , was let "by Eleanor Roosevelt’s forceful leadership".

You'da been shocked at how forceful the leadership of the "We have a right to own slaves" group was, Walter.

The privacy is sacrosanct nonsense is just that...nonsense. Times have changed...and some accomodation is going to have to be made.

I understand and appreciate your position...but I oppose it completely.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Significant parts of the right of privacy have ceased to exist…and more are going with each passing day.

Nope. The United States is still a signatory of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and article 12 of this declaration still says what it's been saying since 1948:

In article 12, the authors of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights wrote:
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Source

Just because the United States is increasingly violating human rights abroad doesn't mean that its victims have forfeited them.

Please quote where I suggested that anyone has forfeited rights.

I've said we have lost some of them...and will lose more.

Things change, Thomas. Try to grasp that concept.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

I didn't know it was spelled out specifically about privacy in international laws. Guess you do learn something new every day. It would seem that the underground spy cables would violate article twelve.

2 Replies

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

It is ridiculously hard to see how anyone can tap into a submarine cable without being detected or completely ruining it. Much more likely they will tap into the electronics where the cable lands.

Really? I do know (from personal knowledge) that such has been done already in 1970's. (And most certainly even earlier.)

Just add the secret devices to this graphic of the USS Jimmy Carter ...

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zpsea60b560.jpg

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Things change, Thomas. Try to grasp that concept.

Contrary to your insinuation, I do understand the concept that things change. But just because they can change, that doesn't mean they did in this case. I have given you my evidence why the human right to privacy hasn't changed as a matter of international law: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights still says what it's always been saying, and the United States is still a signatory of it.

Now, what is your evidence that things have changed since 1948?

1 Reply

@revelette,

revelette wrote:

Guess you do learn something new every day.

I'm happy to hear that. Smile

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

engineer wrote:
It is ridiculously hard to see how anyone can tap into a submarine cable without being detected or completely ruining it. Much more likely they will tap into the electronics where the cable lands.

Really? I do know (from personal knowledge) that such has been done already in 1970's. (And most certainly even earlier.)

That was in the 1970s, when telecom operators transmitted undersea communications over copper wires, which you could tap by measuring the electro-magnetic field they emanated. Nowadays, they transmit them over glass fibers, which don't radiate electromagnetic fields to the outside. So Engineer is right: intelligence agencies are tapping the signals just after they come out of the ocean. The trans-Pacific cables, for example, are being tapped in San Louis-Obispo, CA.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Things change, Thomas. Try to grasp that concept.

Contrary to your insinuation, I do understand the concept that things change. But just because they can change, that doesn't mean they did in this case. I have given you my evidence why the human right to privacy hasn't changed as a matter of international law: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights still says what it's always been saying, and the United States is still a signatory of it.

Now, what is your evidence that things have changed since 1948?

The declaration has not changed, Thomas...but the reality of a right of privacy has.

My evidence: Read this thread.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

I know - in those good old days we (= we West-Germans) did it as well ... versus the bad communist Germans.

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zpsc8d4ef6a.jpg

(Petty Officer 1st Class Walter Hinteler [Res] is unfortunately not on that photo. Wink

)

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The declaration has not changed, Thomas...but the reality of a right of privacy has.

Again: just because a government increasingly violates your rights, that doesn't mean you stop having them. I agree that the United States is violating the human right to privacy to a much greater degree than it did in 1948. And yes, that's what this thread is about. But how does that change the validity of people's claim on this right?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

The founding fathers are rolling in their graves, Frank.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Two German nationals schooling Americans on basic Civics 101 issues.

Dare I use a smiley?

Smile

0 Replies

Snowdon is a dummy

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