Snowdon is a dummy

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Again, as I understand it, the US is not intercepting the communications. Rather, it is collecting data that legally belongs to the communications companies.

Legally under what law, US-law or the law of that foreign citizen's country?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

As I understand it, the NSA received an order from the FISA Court authorizing it to retrieve data from communications companies. Presumably, the NSA needed to show probable cause before receiving that order.

The NSA asked for about 34,000 times since that court was established. In 2008, the court rejected one demand for the last time, and only this one in that year, 11 since forming the court = a total rejection rate of 0.03%.

And your point is?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
Again, as I understand it, the US is not intercepting the communications. Rather, it is collecting data that legally belongs to the communications companies.

Legally under what law, US-law or the law of that foreign citizen's country?

Under US law.

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@joefromchicago,

It seems that the court authorises nearly all demands - good job done by the NSA.

(Data for US-citizens, btw, can be collected without warrant.)

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@joefromchicago,

Under German law, that's a criminal offence. Wink

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@Walter Hinteler,

Aren't we confusing what information Snowden released and what is legal or illegal for NSA to seek data on?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Under German law, that's a criminal offence.

Then it's a good thing none of this happened in Germany.

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@Walter Hinteler,

My understanding is the court has often asked for changes such as narrowing the scope or something else to meet the law before authorizing. That would not count as a rejection but it would show the court is showing some diligence in not approving everything as first written.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Then it's a good thing none of this happened in Germany.

Since it is said that data from Germans were collected, the Fedral Prosecution Office ("Bundesanwaltschaft") is investigating. ex offico as well since there have been a couple of criminal complaints.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

As I understand it, the NSA received an order from the FISA Court authorizing it to retrieve data from communications companies. Presumably, the NSA needed to show probable cause before receiving that order. What evidence do you have that the NSA did not have probable cause?

That is what Snowden released. The FISA request was for all data for all people. No way the NSA has probable cause that every citizen is planning attacks.

joefromchicago wrote:

engineer wrote:
- The NSA is collecting phone call information about many US citizens without probable cause.

Again, where is your evidence?

Snowden's release.

joefromchicago wrote:

engineer wrote:
- Judicial oversight is a joke.

That's probably true, but then, if it has been a joke, it has been a joke since its creation in the late 1970s. We didn't need Snowden to tell us that

But again, Snowden confirmed it.

joefromchicago wrote:

engineer wrote:
- The US is spying on our allies during trade negotiations.

And this bothers you why?

Because the damage to our credibility completely outweighs any benefit we derive. It shows a government that is completely fascinated with surveillance with no respect of rights or consequences.

joefromchicago wrote:

engineer wrote:
- The US is monitoring the electronic traffic of a large number of foreign citizens who are not in any way suspected of a crime.

Again, as I understand it, the US is not intercepting the communications. Rather, it is collecting data that legally belongs to the communications companies. The phone company knows what calls I made when and to what numbers - I know that because I see the bill every month. If I didn't want the phone company to know that information, I'd write letters instead.

They are scanning your letters as well so that won't help. The phone company has an obligation to keep that information private. That is why they have been fighting the FISA request. The NSA is also intercepting all your Internet traffic, something that the providers to not routinely collect.

joefromchicago wrote:

engineer wrote:
The guy is a hero. Funny how we look at the guy who released the Pentagon Papers as a hero but this guy is a stupid lawbreaker.

Snowden may be a hero or he may be a villain. That's undecided. What's clear is that he is an accused criminal and a confessed contract-breaker. On this point, I agree with Frank: if Snowden believes in the justification of his actions, then he should return to the US and face criminal charges for the disclosures he made and civil penalties for the contract he broke. Right now, though, he's just another guy who thinks he's above the law. I have trouble finding that particularly noble or praiseworthy.

Do you really believe he will get a fair trial in the US? Based on Bradley Manning's treatment (solitary confinement, placed on a suicide watch so that the government can prevent him from having writing materials, etc, and no cooperation with the defense) I can't think that Snowden would get anything resembling a fair trial. Lawyers for Gitmo detainees have their phones tapped and their "private" discussions with their clients monitored. Even Ellsberg had his phone tapped and his doctor's office broken into looking for information that could smear him in a trial. If the federal government wants to pound Snowden, he doesn't have a chance.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Quote:
The fact that the "acrid smell and reddish rainbow" impacted many New Yorkers and lingers still, but yet didn't result in you standing up to scream "STOP DOING THIS ELSEWHERE" demonstrates the American self-interest that is so obvious to everyone else in the world.

YOU DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST INKLING WHAT I DO!, JPB. All you can do is speculate. I am active in campus Divestment from Israel which remains one of the sore spots of American foreign policy in the Middle East....those people hate us because of the US double standard, paying lip service to the Palestinians while allowing Israel to continue building settlements while holding its boot on the neck of these people is an abomination! If the US meant the Palestinians well, they would reduce some of the 3 billion dollars they contribute to Israel annually....That would soon put a halt to the settlement building.

I am very much a political activist. How the heck can one remain inactive when we see our country drowning in thugs like the TEA PARTY! One can gag over and over at what's taking place in America today! However, when it comes to betraying my country, the only home I know, Edward Snowden will never get a pat on the back from me. In fact, I cannot stomach the man.

Nice rant. The YOU I was referring to was the collective YOU in the NYC area who went through 9/11 and seem to be the ones (here, at least) who are least concerned with our government breaking its own laws and the privacy of its citizens. You (singular you, or you and Frank) make my very point that rather than screaming for our government to stop bombing innocent people you openly state that you don't mind what they do so long as it's ostensibly done in the name of your safety.

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@parados,

I don't have more information about this secret court .. I just know, it's seated in room No 3226 of E. Barrett Prettyman Courthouse ... Very Happy

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

I agree again. Can you imagine if the entire weight of the American government had shown this kind of imagination and doggedness going after the bankers who caused the housing bubble? Or I don't know, finding actual WMD before starting a war or two?
I don't blame the Bolivians for being angry. I wonder who the US government is going to piss off next?

It's own citizens, perhaps.

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@joefromchicago,

All we can do at this point is assume that the NSA is following the law under the FISA Court or it isn't. We'll know more, one way or the other, if and when the DOJ releases the FISA ruling to the EFF under the FIA (how's that for alphabet soup). The DOJ's contention that releasing the ruling would cause "confusion" is absurd.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130612/14434423428/fisa-court-says-dojs-claims-that-it-cant-reveal-secret-interpretation-law-is-wrong.shtml

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@engineer,

You wrote,

Quote:

That is what Snowden released. The FISA request was for all data for all people. No way the NSA has probable cause that every citizen is planning attacks.

What I'd like to know is "what data for all people?" Just numerical data; the numbers of calls? How is that intrusion into private lives?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Just numerical data; the numbers of calls? How is that intrusion into private lives?

It'smy private thing whom I call how often, how long and when.
We have that in an article of our Basic Law ("constitution"), Article 10
[Privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications].

This is a "basic right" that I've got. It might be changed by parliament but " In no case may the essence of a basic right be affected." (Art 19, Basic Law).
(That's one of the reasons, what data collecting laws very rarely are approved by the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany.)

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

I wonder how the FISA court interprets that?

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@cicerone imposter,

That's what the EFF is trying to ascertain in its lawsuit. DOJ doesn't want us to know, because, well... they just don't.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I wonder how the FISA court interprets that?

I'm sure that the FISA court has nothing to do with and within the German constitution.

... and that not only because secret courts are unconstitutional here. Wink

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@engineer,

engineer wrote:

No way the NSA has probable cause that every citizen is planning attacks.

No doubt, but then that's not the point. If the government were reading everybody's e-mails or listening to everybody's phone conversations, I could see your point. But it's not, at least according to what I've read. Instead, it's analyzing data from the communications companies. That information isn't private. Every time you make a phone call, you willingly give that information to the phone company, and you have no reasonable expectation that the phone company will keep that information confidential.

engineer wrote:

But again, Snowden confirmed it.

By breaking the law? Couldn't he have just written an op-ed?

engineer wrote:

Because the damage to our credibility completely outweighs any benefit we derive. It shows a government that is completely fascinated with surveillance with no respect of rights or consequences.

I disagree, but regardless, Snowden doesn't get to claim the status of a "whistleblower" just to show that the government is being hypocritical or acting contrary to its own interests. The bar is much higher than that.

engineer wrote:

They are scanning your letters as well so that won't help.

In what way?

engineer wrote:

The phone company has an obligation to keep that information private. That is why they have been fighting the FISA request.

I don't think that's true, at least not for all phone service providers. Some, as I understand it, have actively assisted the NSA.

engineer wrote:

The NSA is also intercepting all your Internet traffic, something that the providers to not routinely collect.

"Intercepted" in what way?

engineer wrote:

Do you really believe he will get a fair trial in the US?

Maybe. Maybe not. That's why we have appellate courts.

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Snowdon is a dummy

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