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The Bible (a discussion)

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 03:41 pm
@Olivier5,
I wasn't offering a proof for God's existence, merely an anecdotal consideration of God's power.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 04:08 pm
@neologist,
"God's power" doesn't exist. It's a man-made concept developed from man-made gods.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The Bible says that ci. I quoted the verse/s.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:07 pm
@neologist,
It's not an effective argument to non believers like me... and presumably, God would have made a better job at it. You have to admit that from a non-christian perspective, eg from an atheist's but also a Muslim perspective, the 4 gospels look pretty messy, and very human. And they are only the tip of the iceberg since there are like two dozens apocryphal gospels.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:15 pm
@spendius,
If the bible says that, why are all those people ignoring that message?

Also, the bible is full of contradictions, errors and omissions. Why should anyone believe its message?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That has nothing to do with me ci? Ask them.

Quote:
Also, the bible is full of contradictions, errors and omissions. Why should anyone believe its message?


Because the contradictions, errors and omissions are an aspect of the message.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:19 pm
@spendius,
No, but you're the one who posted an opinion, and I only responded.

That's what open forums are about - in case you still didn't know.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I didn't post an opinion.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:24 pm
@spendius,
You never do. Sex is passe.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 05:29 pm
Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus, so the earlist Buddhist parchments must have long since crumbled to dust.
No sweat, they were simply copied onto fresh parchment every so often down the centuries exactly like the Bible scriptures..Smile
Incidentally nobody says the Buddhist scriptures were ever tweaked and changed, but they say that about the Bible scriptures.
No doubt the demons in atheists KNOW that Christianity is the only true religion and that all the others don't count and are therefore not worth attacking..Smile

Whole lotta shakin going on- "Believe in God,the demons also believe and tremble" (James 2:19)

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 06:24 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
It's not an effective argument to non believers like me... and presumably, God would have made a better job at it. You have to admit that from a non-christian perspective, eg from an atheist's but also a Muslim perspective, the 4 gospels look pretty messy, and very human. And they are only the tip of the iceberg since there are like two dozens apocryphal gospels.
God certainly could have done a better job in some sense; but, could he have authentically added human perspective. After all, the bible was written for humans, and with consideration for the least sophisticated of us. As for the apocryphal gospels, they hardly meet the standards of the canonical gospels.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 07:10 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
After all, the bible was written for humans, and with consideration for the least sophisticated of us.

I'm sure the least sophisticated among us would have liked a coherent set of teaching, but whatever... I'm not interested in yet another theological dispute

Quote:
As for the apocryphal gospels, they hardly meet the standards of the canonical gospels.

The Gospel of Thomas has some value I think, in that it's untainted by any catholic hands. It is said to be close to the alleged Q source, ie the verbatim quotes of Christ, but tainted with gnostic inferences. One can safely ignore the most giberisho-mystic ideas and keep the rest, a lot of which is already in the synoptics. But it's how little there is which is striking. The resurection is absent...

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

That sounds autobiographical...
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 07:33 pm
@Olivier5,
This other one I like:

Quote:
29. Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.


Very Jewish... :-)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 07:55 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
. . . Gospel of Thomas has some value I think, in that it's untainted by any catholic hands. It is said to be close to the alleged Q source, ie the verbatim quotes of Christ, but tainted with gnostic inferences. One can safely ignore the most giberisho-mystic ideas and keep the rest, a lot of which is already in the synoptics. But it's how little there is which is striking. The resurection is absent...

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

That sounds autobiographical...
I prefer avoiding the gibberisho stuff altogether. It's like I enjoy walking in the park where folks keep their dogs on a leash.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2014 09:05 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
I prefer avoiding the gibberisho stuff altogether.

The problem as I see it is: You'll get some gibberish or another wherever you turn to, just different kind of gibberish. The canonical gospel have their eyes on "the Jews" as the vilain of the story because Rome was not to be aggravated. They carry a greco-roman bias, one where Jesus is considered equal to God... a very irrational, gibberish path too. Esoteric in any case...

Quote:
I enjoy walking in the park where folks keep their dogs on a leash

You mean, you like the gospel on a leash?

The gospel is dangerous... It's a mind virus and it mutates often.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2014 03:40 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Whatever may be said about the original writings, the copyists were scrupulously accurate.


It is glaringly obvious that Origen was using a badly corrupted copy of the Septuagint. How do you account for that? How can you, on the one hand, admit to textual differences, and on the other claim that your copyists are scrupulously accurate?

But that is certainly an understandable argument coming from those disposed to believe all manner of superstitious mumbo-jumbo.

The synoptic gospels don't appear, even in fragmentary form, until the second century. They are not referred to as "gospels" until near the end of that century. There would be every good reason to want to assure that they tell the same story (synopsis), and until they were widely enough distributed (in an age without printing presses), making changes would be very easy. It only becomes difficult after large numbers of people are familiar with the texts. Even then, major changes can be made through interpolation--inserting passages which don't otherwise alter the basic text. That would in fact be the best way to make the synoptic gospels look synoptic.

But more than that, even early church writers could not agree on basic facts. Papias, Origen and others claim that Matthew wrote in Hebrew (an hilarious claim when on considers that he would ahve been writing for an audience who, if literate at all, would have been speakers of either Aramaic or Koine Greek). Nor could they agree on the order in which they were written, nor account for the divergence of narrative an content between John and the synoptic writers.

Any god powerful enough to inspire the scriptures would be powerful enough not to ignore or even to inflict capricious and arbitrary suffering on literally billions of humans over the last ten thousand years. Don't drag your superstitious maundering into such a discussion.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2014 03:57 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Any god powerful enough to inspire the scriptures would be powerful enough not to ignore or even to inflict capricious and arbitrary suffering on literally billions of humans over the last ten thousand years. Don't drag your superstitious maundering into such a discussion.


That's plain ridiculous from an atheist point of view. If somebody said that to me in the pub I would stare at them blankly and wonder how anybody's head could get into such a state.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2014 04:09 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
The gospel is dangerous... It's a mind virus and it mutates often.


What do you suggest as an alternative Olivier?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2014 06:01 am
@spendius,
There's no alternative to history, spendi. Besides, I rather like revolutionary messages in general and this one in particular. I was suggesting to neo that he should unleash his gospel...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2014 07:27 am
@Olivier5,
There is Herstory.
 

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