The Bible (a discussion)

@Olivier5,

The Fundamentalists will argue the "no contradiction" point till either you or they tire of the battery.

Most of the literate living would agree that the contradiction of Creation according to Genesis is an 800 lb sanctified gorilla that the Orthodox Christians and Muslims and Jews have to deal with.
"day/date" Creationism seems to be the backoff position along with an acceptance of "micro evolution"

As my Jewish Grandfather said"We invented this bullshit, so if we can say this is a fable, its a fable already"
Its fun listening to em squirm though.

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@neologist,

In one version (Genesis 1), God created man and woman on the 6th day, together, at the end of the creation process i.e. after creating everything else including all plant and animal species.

In the second chapter, God creates man first, then all the animals as "helpers" to man, and only when man is dissatisfied with all these "helpers" does God get the idea of creating a woman, from man's rib.

Therefore the two chronologies are contradictory. Was Adam created before other animal species or after? It's either one or the other but it can't be both.

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@farmerman,

Oh, I'm going to tire very soon. This stuff is obvious. Seems to me that anyone not seeing it hasn't read the Bible very carefully.

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@Olivier5,

Would you charge that there is no rational answer for the text being without contradiction or do you charge that you do not see one?

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@Smileyrius,

The rational answer is that these texts are of human origin, and hence just as full of contradiction as anything humans ever wrote...

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@Olivier5,

One might labour that obvious point, Ollie, until one is blue in the face but those who have a need to find these contradictions, in order to rationalise their rejection of Christian teaching on sexual behaviour, will never get it because they need the contradictions, other arguments being too difficult, to cling on to in lifebelt fashion.

And that is reinforced by how very ******* clever they are in finding them, or what is much more likely, having had them found for them by the enemies of Christendom who are licking their lips at the lucrative prospects the demise of that noble project presents to them.

You know you are speaking to a boring and ignorant muppet when you hear or read any denigrations of The Holy Bible.

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@Olivier5,

You are of the opine that the bible is uninspired, therefore we see things from different mountaintops. I appreciate your view and I will not bore you with a drawn out chat over my understandings with regard to specific putative contradictions.
I only wish to assert that you do not have to be ignorant to overcome such contradictions. I have personally found that a decent examination of the text and the use of language have always shown me at the very least a plausible theory for scriptural harmony.
Perhaps one day I will find a contradiction that I cannot surpass, but at least for now, I am quite satisfied

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@Smileyrius,

If you want a contradiction try imagining a wild-eyed preacher from the backwoods of, (fill in state of choice on a par with what Galilee was to the elite in Jerusalem), driving the money changers and prostitutes out of any of The Temples of Mammon such as Wall Street or the City of London.

Single-handed. Rambo style.

Noah is even dafter than that. So much so that a sensible person would automatically feel obliged to think that there was a riddle to be thought out before engaging his opinion neurons.

Forty days fodder for two horses?? Sheesh!! Think of the bill of lading. On account of some old codger's long range weather forecast.

Think of the bill of lading for the non-returnable man's mission to Mars.

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It is often forgotten that the Bible was not written as a scientific treatise, but as a guide for common people, initially farmers and herdsmen. That the entire creation of earth and humankind can be so eloquently described in but a few paragraphs should be, at the very least, humbling to us.

The third chapter of Genesis is equally as succinct as it is sublime, for it explains in a few verses:
The reason we die;
The allegations that God is a liar and does not have man's best interests in mind;
The presumption that humans would be better off setting their own moral standards; and
God's purpose to settle accounts by means of one who would bruise the rebel in the head.

The entire bible is based around the fulfillment of the prophecy in Genesis 3:15

All of it. Even the alleged contradictions.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

I only wish to assert that you do not have to be ignorant to overcome such contradictions.

Perhaps it may also be said it would be supercilious to dismiss the scriptures simply because you do not understand everything on the first, or second, or seventh read.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Perhaps it may also be said it would be supercilious to dismiss the scriptures simply because you do not understand everything on the first, or second, or seventh read.

What good is it if you don't understand it in seven readings? Just goes to show how absurd it is and irrelevant. If the passage is so vague that a million different people reading it get something different and none of them can agree on it, what good is it? It becomes nothing but subjective poetry. If that is the case you can write any nonsense and it would have the same impact.

I have read the bible multiple times, completely through and studied parts of it extensively. Yet I still find it lacking and far from having any divine influence. There are far superior texts and writings that don't have the constant support for murder and wars. It is clear that the ancient Jews loved war and murdering anyone who didn't live up to what they thought their god wanted.

Modern christians have been forced through secular reasoning to abandon their highly critical and murdering justice on those who don't conform to their christian dogma. They they try to pretend as if they are the motivation behind secular ideas.

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@spendius,

Quote:

You know you are speaking to a boring and ignorant muppet when you hear or read any denigrations of The Holy Bible.

Well, maybe you're speaking to an ignorant muppet then. I respect the Bible as (at times) good literature and an important (if biased) historical witness, but not an divinely inspired.

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@Smileyrius,

If you can solve the contradiction I pointed at in Genesis, be my guest...

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@neologist,

Quote:

Perhaps it may also be said it would be supercilious to dismiss the scriptures simply because you do not understand everything on the first, or second, or seventh read.

Do you man by that that the Bible is beyond critique?

If you can solve the contradiction in Genesis I pointed at, be my guest. Evidently you can't, or you would have done it already.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Do you man by that that the Bible is beyond critique?

I don't think it is possible to read the bible and not have many questions.

Olivier5 wrote:

If you can solve the contradiction in Genesis I pointed at, be my guest. Evidently you can't, or you would have done it already.

Perhaps you just did not like my explanation.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

What good is it if you don't understand it in seven readings? Just goes to show how absurd it is and irrelevant. If the passage is so vague that a million different people reading it get something different and none of them can agree on it, what good is it? It becomes nothing but subjective poetry. If that is the case you can write any nonsense and it would have the same impact.

Many people, perhaps a majority, agree with your reasoning. I contend that is not God's fault.

Krumple wrote:

Modern christians have been forced through secular reasoning to abandon their highly critical and murdering justice on those who don't conform to their christian dogma. They they try to pretend as if they are the motivation behind secular ideas.

Please do not paint all bible students with that brush.

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@Olivier5,

The reason I refrained before Olivier, is that you appear to be more interested in the the question than the answer. I'll indulge you upon the chance that I am wrong, after all I have been before.

If you chart out the order of Genesis 1, you get the following overview of creation.

Day one – Heavens and earth are created. “Let there be light.” Day and Night.
Day two – Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
Day three – Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is made.
Day four – Sun, moon, stars are made.
Day five – Sea life and birds are made.
Day six – Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and female) are made.

Genesis 1 is chronological order of events detailing Gods creation of the Earth, dividing them into 6 Yoms of creation.

Genesis 2 however is a more detailed expression of Day 6, detailing Gods preparation and implementation of man into the garden of Eden.

Keep in mind that there is no expression of chronology in Genesis chapter 2 whereas chronology and order were quite present throughout the rest of the Genesis account.

In verse 19, the source of the pupative contradiction, God had been creating animals and he now brings them to Adam to see what he would name them. It does not stipulate that Adam was lonely and so he created animals.
Rather this is the point where God had settled Adam in, and now he would begin his work for which the animals were pertinent to the story.

Of course I leave it to your scrutiny,

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Many people, perhaps a majority, agree with your reasoning. I contend that is not God's fault.

You always seem to miss my point. The point is, if there is a cost or consequence for our existence. Meaning if there is a message from god about what we should be doing for our future well being then that message needs to be clear otherwise it becomes part of the liability.

The only other way I can put it is let's say you get a new job and this job has some dangers involved. Your supervisor says you need to study the safety manual so you can know the dangers and how to avoid injuring yourself or worse. When you get the manual it is in a foreign language that you don't understand. How is it you can get the full benefit of the safety manual when you can't even understand the language?

neologist wrote:

Please do not paint all bible students with that brush.

I wasn't referring to bible students. I was referring to christians as a whole who want to take credit for secular reasoning. There have been a lot of murders that christianity played the catalyst for. You can't deny this fact. If it weren't for the demand to kill those who practice witch craft then many people wouldn't have been burned alive or drown unnecessarily. It is the religion that motivates good people to do evil things. It was secular reasoning that put a stop to this behavior.

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@Smileyrius,

Quote:

It does not stipulate that Adam was lonely and so he created animals.

Verse 18 does stipulate that:

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

The chronology is clear:

1. Man is created
2. Animals are created
3. Woman is created

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Guys guys, what's with all this talk about "studying the whole Bible"?
The only part of it that really matters are the Gospels, they're its nuclear core!
Heck, a single slimline gospel like this one can be picked up for just a few pence in any bookshop, or got free from any Christian group and read in just a couple of days.
If that doesn't help you lock onto Jesus, NOTHING will!
By all means read other parts of the Bible if you like, there's some fascinating stuff in there, but don't lose your focus on JESUS, he trumps all the rest.. Smile

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/gospel.gif~original

Remember Jesus had to tell the snooty priests to get their noses out of their heavyweight scripture volumes and simply glance up to see him standing in front of them-
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)

But ordinary people quickly cottoned on.. Smile

-
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)
"There is no other name under heaven that can save us" (Acts 4:12)
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith!" (Heb 12:2)

1 Reply

The Bible (a discussion)

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