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The Bible (a discussion)

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 10:51 am
@neologist,
Quote:
If we can agree that the serpent represented Satan, (rebel, resistor, adversary)


Satan represents the temptations we are evolved to succumb to and which are deleterious to successful political organisation and thus the province of subversives.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 10:56 am
re spendius: Satan is a communist. Who knew?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 11:06 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Setanta (Post 5379929)
Setanta wrote:
If Adam and Eve had free will, and no knowledge of good and evil, there was nothing for which to punish them. You dance around this all the time, but the bedrock of this is that your boy god was cruel and capricious, and punished them for a "no foul" situation.


Their perfect conscience would prevent them from any moral error, but without choice, they would be robots. the tree represented their choice. No choice - no free will. I know it's a stretch; but it's the story nevertheless.


Neo...you are above this!

The story specifically says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil. THE POINT of the story, in effect, is that the god did not want them to learn about that...was DEMANDING that they not learn about it...supposedly because it would make them like gods.

THEY DID NOT KNOW there was anything wrong with choosing to disobey. They could not know.

Yet they were punished for disobeying.

Even you...apparently in thrall to this bit of mythology...should be able to see that ANY punishment was entirely undeserved.

Why do you not just acknowledge this...and stay away from the subject...because, Neo, this particular piece of mythology simply cannot be rationalized. It is an absurdity.

C'mon.

Just acknowledge that it is an absurdity...and move away from it never to return.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 11:28 am
We collectively moved away from the concept of punishing the child for the sins of the father. Why can't god? He's kinda barbaric, isn't he?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 11:40 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

re spendius: Satan is a communist. Who knew?


Satan is a right wing fascist......

Jesus is a liberal.....
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 12:25 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
How can you take seriously somebody who only answers those posts that it suits him to answer on the basis that the others are "spurious". And somebody who has to envisage a Sky God before he can **** on it and talks about the most important man in history as "boy"? There's nothing there to take seriously.

Evolution winnows out "defects".
Set and I have a history
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 12:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Just acknowledge that it is an absurdity...and move away from it never to return.
Supposedly God created mankind in his own image. How then did you acquire your noble standards of justice and fairness if they were not present abundantly in the God who (allegedly) created you? And, if God is fair and just to a superlative degree, how could he be guilty of the abominations you aver? That is your absurdity. Check my signature line.
timur
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 12:50 pm
Neologist wrote:
Supposedly God created mankind in his own image.


Where did you get this from?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 12:56 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Just acknowledge that it is an absurdity...and move away from it never to return.
Supposedly God created mankind in his own image. How then did you acquire your noble standards of justice and fairness if they were not present abundantly in the God who (allegedly) created you? [/quoe]

It may have been created some other way. Perhaps as we got into groups...we realized the necessity for laws...and for standards of conduct.

I am interested in why you think the only way we could acquire those standards is if a god presented them to us?



[quote[And, if God is fair and just to a superlative degree, how could he be guilty of the abominations you aver? That is your absurdity. Check my signature line.


Beats me. But I am not talking about GOD...or God. I am talking about the god of the Bible. The god described in the first five books of the Bible.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 01:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Took the liberty of re formatting your post for clarity. I hope you don't mind.
Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Just acknowledge that it is an absurdity...and move away from it never to return.
Supposedly God created mankind in his own image. How then did you acquire your noble standards of justice and fairness if they were not present abundantly in the God who (allegedly) created you?
Frank Apisa wrote:
It may have been created some other way. Perhaps as we got into groups...we realized the necessity for laws...and for standards of conduct.

I am interested in why you think the only way we could acquire those standards is if a god presented them to us?
I wrote:
And, if God is fair and just to a superlative degree, how could he be guilty of the abominations you aver? That is your absurdity. Check my signature line.
Beats me. But I am not talking about GOD...or God. I am talking about the god of the Bible. The god described in the first five books of the Bible.
Well, the God described in the first 3 chapters of the bible created mankind in his image. So, at the time of Adam and Eve's sin, they would have had those qualities, wisdom being one of them. BTW, the creative days were not merely 24 hours in length. They were not naive babes as some assume.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 01:17 pm
@neologist,
Utter, self-delusive fantasy, and to no other purpose than to hide from the explicit implications of your goofy scripture.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 01:21 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Took the liberty of re formatting your post for clarity. I hope you don't mind.
Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Just acknowledge that it is an absurdity...and move away from it never to return.
Supposedly God created mankind in his own image. How then did you acquire your noble standards of justice and fairness if they were not present abundantly in the God who (allegedly) created you?
Frank Apisa wrote:
It may have been created some other way. Perhaps as we got into groups...we realized the necessity for laws...and for standards of conduct.

I am interested in why you think the only way we could acquire those standards is if a god presented them to us?
I wrote:
And, if God is fair and just to a superlative degree, how could he be guilty of the abominations you aver? That is your absurdity. Check my signature line.
Beats me. But I am not talking about GOD...or God. I am talking about the god of the Bible. The god described in the first five books of the Bible.
Well, the God described in the first 3 chapters of the bible created mankind in his image. So, at the time of Adam and Eve's sin, they would have had those qualities, wisdom being one of them. BTW, the creative days were not merely 24 hours in length. They were not naive babes as some assume.



Neo...THE POINT OF THE STORY IS THAT THE god IS REFUSING TO GIVE THEM THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL...OF RIGHT AND WRONG.

That is central to the story.

The DID NOT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG...they did not know there is anything wrong with disobeying.

Why are you playing this game?

It makes no sense.

If your god is anywhere near as "fair" as you suggest...you could easily acknowledge that the story of Adam and Eve in the garden...and the punishment meted out... is ABSURD.

Can it be that you just do not trust the god?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 02:00 pm
@timur,
Quote:
Neologist wrote:

Supposedly God created mankind in his own image.



Where did you get this from?


Such an idea has similarities with evolution idea in the sense that they both can say what, when and where but have no explanaion of the how and the why.

The mankind created the gods mankind wanted idea can say what, where, when, how and why. And describe the anomalies and difficulties the idea involves when you get down to the reality of the passing world at its usual pace rather than mooning about with age-old abstractions for the purpose of proving that infractions of Chritianity's rules regarding rumpy-pumpy are quite respectable in this day and age and that even the raising of an eyebrow on hearing of one constitutes intolerance and a violation of human rights.

It is a FACT that the Bible is the holy book of the civilisation that achieved success on such a scale that no other culture produced a single Ray Bradbury to attempt suggesting even its most vague outlines and, and it is even more telling, never even thought of doing.

The success is so great that this civilisation now creams the best talent from the others because they are all beating our increasingly strong doors down to get in here and share it and we can take our pick. And do. A good half of our doctors deserted their own people to come and take care of us.

I can't think that many people could imagine a world without Rupert Murdoch and he is said to be a bastard as well.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 02:41 pm
@spendius,


spendius wrote:

Quote:
Neologist wrote:

Supposedly God created mankind in his own image.



Where did you get this from?


Such an idea has similarities with evolution idea in the sense that they both can say what, when and where but have no explanaion of the how and the why.

The mankind created the gods mankind wanted idea can say what, where, when, how and why. And describe the anomalies and difficulties the idea involves when you get down to the reality of the passing world at its usual pace rather than mooning about with age-old abstractions for the purpose of proving that infractions of Chritianity's rules regarding rumpy-pumpy are quite respectable in this day and age and that even the raising of an eyebrow on hearing of one constitutes intolerance and a violation of human rights.

It is a FACT that the Bible is the holy book of the civilisation that achieved success on such a scale that no other culture produced a single Ray Bradbury to attempt suggesting even its most vague outlines and, and it is even more telling, never even thought of doing.

The success is so great that this civilisation now creams the best talent from the others because they are all beating our increasingly strong doors down to get in here and share it and we can take our pick. And do. A good half of our doctors deserted their own people to come and take care of us.

I can't think that many people could imagine a world without Rupert Murdoch and he is said to be a bastard as well.


This is such a bunch of rose bush fertilizer; I am almost embarrassed to deal with it.

A reasonable case could be made that we would have arrived where we are right now…centuries ago if it were not for that “holy book” and the people who used it the way they did.

Rome, was a thriving civilization that was making huge strides in art, architecture, law, philosophy, poetry, medicine and science. It was, I acknowledge a pagan society…filled with debauchery and violence. But it was moving civilization along…just as the Greeks had done before them. And the Roman society was in full ascendancy for 500+ years.

Then Christianity, and that “holy book” came along…and the world was plunged into 600 years of nothingness so stark people still refer to it as the Dark Ages. Law stayed static, philosophy, art, architecture and all the rest of society stayed static or REGRESSED.

The notion that the world owes that “holy book” some debt is ridiculous. That “holy book” may very well have set us back centuries rather than be a help.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
A reasonable case could be made that we would have arrived where we are right now…centuries ago if it were not for that “holy book” and the people who used it the way they did.


******* make it for ****'s sake then. If you don't make the case, or even try to, that statement is not even rose bush fertilizer. It's rocking horse ****. It's nothing.

I like the idea of rose bush fertilizer.

If it is a reasonable case it shouldn't require much effort to make it.

I dealt with the foolish idea of the "Dark Ages" the other day. How on earth you arrive at 600 years of nothingness could only have been through the tried and tested technique of marking your own exam papers. The Phoenix could not arise from the ashes until it hatched out, fledged and flew away.

You're ridiculous.

I get the impression some of you would believe in God if He tickled your tummies, powdered your bottoms, chucked you under your chins and kept your comforters oozing warm syrup.

Oh to see Apisa enjoying a week in ancient Rome in an equivalent position in the social strata as he is in now in NJ. Make it three months. Then he could participate in more of the attractions on offer.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:18 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
A reasonable case could be made that we would have arrived where we are right now…centuries ago if it were not for that “holy book” and the people who used it the way they did.


******* make it for ****'s sake then. If you don't make the case, or even try to, that statement is not even rose bush fertilizer. It's rocking horse ****. It's nothing.

I like the idea of rose bush fertilizer.

If it is a reasonable case it shouldn't require much effort to make it.

I dealt with the foolish idea of the "Dark Ages" the other day. How on earth you arrive at 600 years of nothingness could only have been through the tried and tested technique of marking your own exam papers. The Phoenix could not arise from the ashes until it hatched out, fledged and flew away.

You're ridiculous.

I get the impression some of you would believe in God if He tickled your tummies, powdered your bottoms, chucked you under your chins and kept your comforters oozing warm syrup.

Oh to see Apisa enjoying a week in ancient Rome in an equivalent position in the social strata as he is in now in NJ. Make it three months. Then he could participate in more of the attractions on offer.




I already did. Read the post...or get someone to read it to you.

You really ought to learn to control your temper, Spendius. You're gonna blow a gasket one day.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You should be penitent at the altar rails thanking God you were not born in Ancient Rome.

Does anybody here fancy swapping places with a Roman Emperor? I certainly don't.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:23 pm
@timur,
timur wrote:
Neologist wrote:
Supposedly God created mankind in his own image.
Where did you get this from?
This is a discussion of the Bible, right?
OK
Just wanted to check
Perhaps it says something like that somewhere
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You made no case whatsoever. (Tautology for emphasis.)

You haven't the faintest idea of how to get to here from any point you want in old Rome in the absence of wishful thinking.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:29 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Utter, self-delusive fantasy, and to no other purpose than to hide from the explicit implications of your goofy scripture.
Usually, you give specific criticism. Which part of my answer to Frank did you find delusional? Was it my assertion that God created mankind in His image? Perhaps we should flog the translators as they all seem to include that passage
 

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