Setanta wrote:Thomas wrote:JTT wrote:Is there an equivalent small 'r' Republican word like 'democratic'?
No, there isn't.
Sure there is, and it's republican.
I understood "small 'r' Republican word like 'democratic'" to mean "republicanic" or something similar. JTT's argument was that "Democrat" as an adjective provides a needed distinction from "democratic" because you can't hear the difference between "Democratic" and "democratic" in spoken conversation. "Republican" and "republican" have the same problem, so the word to distinguish small-r "republican" from capital-R "Republican" would have to sound different than either.
Setanta wrote:What is it about adjectives which makes them "limited?"
It's not that adjectives are limited, it's that the meanings that they have are limited.
Democratic means something different than democratic, whereas I can't see where Republican and republican have the same differences, or for that matter and what's more important the same uses, in everyday language.
That certainly doesn't mean there aren't any, Set, just that I can think of any.
Thomas wrote:Setanta wrote:Thomas wrote:JTT wrote:Is there an equivalent small 'r' Republican word like 'democratic'?
No, there isn't.
Sure there is, and it's republican.
I understood "small 'r' Republican word like 'democratic'" to mean "republicanic" or something similar. JTT's argument was that "Democrat" as an adjective provides a needed distinction from "democratic" because you can't hear the difference between "Democratic" and "democratic" in spoken conversation. "Republican" and "republican" have the same problem, so the word to distinguish small-r "republican" from capital-R "Republican" would have to sound different than either.
More like a theory, than an argument, Thomas, as noted by my "Perhaps!". I'm certainly not sold on it at this point. What's important to note though is that a new adjective has been created. The reasons why remain the mystery.
There is as much difference between Republican and republican as there is between Democratic and democratic. In both cases, the majuscule form refers to a specific political party with which an ideological agenda is classically identified.
There might be a difference in the incidence and prevalence of usage between democratic and republican, however i would assert that that arises through ignorance, and through propaganda. The authors of the Constitution had no problem with the word republican, but it's meaning has become obscure over time, and there is a "mass-appeal" aspect of the word democratic which makes it a preferred modifier when producing political rhetoric.
However, referring to Great Britain as a democracy is inaccurate, but referring to it as a democratic republic, or simply a republican form of government is very accurate. On the basis of an old, and rather inaccurate definition of republic, Great Britain is not a republic, because that definition is that of form of government whose head of state is not a monarch (cf, Merriam-Webster's definition 1a).
However, the derivation of the word, from Latin through French, makes Great Britain a republic, and is described in Merriam-Webster's definition 1b: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law. The key factors in the definition of a republic are a body of citizens entitled to vote (and even in our own times, the franchise is not universal) and power exercised by elected representatives governing according to a body of law. The only quibble one could raise would be to require that modern democracies be described as democratic republics. None of the modern "democracies" actually practice democratic governance, but rely upon elected representatives (whether in the legislative or the executive) who practice governance in accordance with the body of law.
To that extent, Great Britain is a republic (despite the figurehead monarch), as is France, Germany--virtually all of the European nations (although one might argue about the extent to which corruption negates the fact). Rome, before the Caesars, was a republic. Athens in the classical age was a republic, despite all the airy-fairy horseshit which gets peddled about the "cradle of democracy" and democratic government in Athens (fewer than 10% of adult males were enfranchised within the city itself, and the figure drops dramatically when one includes Attica, the territory controlled by Athens). Venice, before Napoleon, was a republic.
Republican has a meaning which is in fact more specific than democratic, a more precise description of the means of governance. Democratic is, however, a politically "sexy" term, and gets more of a work out.
Setanta wrote:There is as much difference between Republican and republican as there is between Democratic and democratic. In both cases, the majuscule form refers to a specific political party with which an ideological agenda is classically identified.
Sure. Everyone agrees on that.
But my original usage question was, why are some people, most of them Republicans, using "Democrat" instead of "Democratic" as an adjective? JTT's theory was that this created a needed distinction in spoken language between "the Democrat opposition to the Iraq war" vs "installing a democratic government in Iraq." I am skeptical of this theory, because it predicts a similar distinction between "the republican form of government" and "America's beloved leader, the Republican president." We aren't seeing this distinction, so I'm skeptical of JTT's theory.
Thomas wrote:Setanta wrote:There is as much difference between Republican and republican as there is between Democratic and democratic. In both cases, the majuscule form refers to a specific political party with which an ideological agenda is classically identified.
Sure. Everyone agrees on that.
But my original usage question was, why are some people, most of them Republicans, using "Democrat" instead of "Democratic" as an adjective? JTT's theory was that this created a needed distinction in spoken language between "the Democrat opposition to the Iraq war" vs "installing a democratic government in Iraq." I am skeptical of this theory, because it predicts a similar distinction between "the republican form of government" and "America's beloved leader, the Republican president." We aren't seeing this distinction, so I'm skeptical of JTT's theory.
I'm not sure that it necessarily has to "predict[s] a similar distinction between "the republican form of government" and "America's beloved leader, the Republican president", Thomas but let's allow that it does.
There may well be attested examples of the other but my point, which you seem to agree on, correct me if I'm wrong, is that 'democratic' is a word that is "understood" and used more frequently [much more frequently ?] than 'republican'. In other words, 'democratic' has a street recognition that 'republican' doesn't.
Is it only by personal observation that you believe that most of the people using this form are Republicans?
Walter Hinteler wrote:Thomas wrote: I'm skeptical of JTT's theory.
Hence: "
the doubting Thomas" :wink:
[Nothing against Thomas; just an appreciation of Walter's wit]
Why do Americans use "pry" for "prise" as in Charlton Heston's famous statement?
That seems well bonkers to me.
Your is a minority opinion . . . and we have more and bigger guns, as well . . .
Kindly don't point that thing at me.
It would make more sense (and it doesn't make any sense) if "pry" was not already taken up with another meaning altogether.
Whereas "prise" isn't.
Just thought I would apprise you of these facts.
:wink:
McTag wrote:Why do Americans use "pry" for "prise" as in Charlton Heston's famous statement?
That seems well bonkers to me.
Speaking of which, The Onion has this to report:
McTag wrote:Kindly don't point that thing at me.
It would make more sense (and it doesn't make any sense) if "pry" was not already taken up with another meaning altogether.
Whereas "prise" isn't.
Just thought I would apprise you of these facts.
:wink:
Is 'prise' really the BrE use, McTag? If Charlton had been shipped over to England for burial, would the gun have been "prised" from his hands?
Isn't 'get' taken up with considerably more meanings that 'pry'. What's the other meaning for 'pry'?
Thomas wrote:
Speaking of which, The Onion has this to report:
So Thomas, they were able to just
take the gun from his cold dead hands. It didn't have to be pried free. I guess that trigor mortis hadn't set in.
Isn't Paul Pry a subject in good standing these days?
JTT wrote:McTag wrote:Kindly don't point that thing at me.
It would make more sense (and it doesn't make any sense) if "pry" was not already taken up with another meaning altogether.
Whereas "prise" isn't.
Just thought I would apprise you of these facts.
:wink:
Is 'prise' really the BrE use, McTag? If Charlton had been shipped over to England for burial, would the gun have been "prised" from his hands?
Isn't 'get' taken up with considerably more meanings that 'pry'. What's the other meaning for 'pry'?
What mad fanciful nonsense is this?
I assume you are "'aving a laugh", as is sometimes said over here.
McTag wrote:Kindly don't point that thing at me.
It would make more sense (and it doesn't make any sense) if "pry" was not already taken up with another meaning altogether.
Whereas "prise" isn't.
Just thought I would apprise you of these facts.
:wink:
I always thought that a
prise (or
prize, if you like) was an award for some accomplishment.
What, pray, is the alternate meaning of
pry (in the altogether or otherwise)? I pry a lid off a jar if it's stuck there.
McTag wrote:JTT wrote:McTag wrote:Kindly don't point that thing at me.
It would make more sense (and it doesn't make any sense) if "pry" was not already taken up with another meaning altogether.
Whereas "prise" isn't.
Just thought I would apprise you of these facts.
:wink:
Is 'prise' really the BrE use, McTag? If Charlton had been shipped over to England for burial, would the gun have been "prised" from his hands?
Isn't 'get' taken up with considerably more meanings that 'pry'. What's the other meaning for 'pry'?
What mad fanciful nonsense is this?
I assume you are "'aving a laugh", as is sometimes said over here.
Can ye buy "prise bars" over there?
