Does God Exist?

@neologist,

Why test people if God already knows the outcome? If a teacher already has your answers why administer the test?

Isn't that vain? Like God needs to test the faithfulness he/she knows we already have?

God has foreknowledge how far into the future does that go? A million, a billion, a trillion years? More? Infinity and beyond?

It seems picking two humans that God knew would fail his/her test seems like these are not tests at all but more like games. Toying with people's lives, head trips and terrorizing something that is lesser of a being. Like treating a pet with abuse and neglect. A circus of maltreated animals.

A "game" of wits between good and evil. If God is infinite and all powerful it seem that the few thousand years humans have been on earth (according to the Bible) God would have found a way to deal with evil with something a bit more permanent than "faith and hope"... These are like putting a band-aid on a cancer. And let's not leave out the scientifically proven inefficacy of prayer. What could be more cruel than an empty promise and letting good and honest people suffer and die?

Why did God create angels before the fall that God knew would cause so much hardship for humanity with all the wars and, yes, human sacrifice?

It seems God's foreknowledge is nothing but a one sided spectacle that has no power at all. Or God created the fabric of the universe to accommodate evil... So does evil have a divine purpose? What a dismal and hopeless idea!

And it is after the advent of "the prince of peace" that the world has seen more wars than even before the coming of "God incarnate".

What profit has this coming had on humanity? It seems today the people who profess God the loudest are the most twisted and hypocritical. God has only become a magnet for those who would conceal their bigotry, racism and every other deadly sin in the cloak of a book that clearly condones such behavior...

In all of this I feel sorry for Christians who have to live and die with such a weak and seemingly powerless deity. Those who put their trust in a deity that leaves them empty and unfulfilled. Some don't even seek medical attention because "God is going to heal them"... Some Christians seek medical attention and still pray yet die an early and painful death...

Like an apparition that one reaches out for that is merely a ghost or empty air. A mirage that appears on the horizon that there is hope of quenching thirst but in the end, a dry and parched landscape of empty dreams and foolishness wasted years of belief all to come to naught. And the others say their faith was not strong enough... Maybe it was God's fault?

Only to further disillusion one to the bitter end and offer some sort of heaven and paradise that removes what ever vestige of human dignity there is left... This is referred to as salvation?

Why not just rip the heart right out of our chests? Why the slow and agonizing realization of a God that hides from the world?

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want...

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@RexRed,

Quote:

So we need to define existence before we define the so called "creator"

In order to perform reasoning and to verify the statements, like for example:
God (if exists) created our intelligence ... in His image and likeness (... whatever it may mean).
Big bang, if exists (... actually if has ever happened) created our intelligence by some casino method (... & without 'knowing' what it is doing).
... we will need to define BOTH (creation & existence) & BEFORE (the claim is made).

Quote:

Do we define Henry Ford first before using a derivative of his automobile?

Defining Henry Ford before the automibile would have not been an entirely bad idea, for in this case the Ford automobiles might have been Daniel Clarke ... or Tesla, and the TPPs would have been Siemens (& operating on hydrogen gas turbines) ... and the CO2 in the air might have been at present 250 ppm.
If we had defined what is CO2 ... and how far it is allowed to go, and what does digging out the carbon from the ground and sending it into the atmoshere actually mean, perhaps we would have been able to manage the CO2 energy crisis and the imminent eco- & bio-catastrophe much better.
Unfortunately the parallel reality does not exist. If only we could go back into the 1960s for example ... with the present day knowledge and understanding of the world, we would have been able to use much better & wiser all the resources and lost opportunities ... wasted unreasonably and irresponsibly in the last 50 years.

Quote:

What comes first, defining the chicken or defining the egg

It is obvious that at some stage of development of the 'chicken' the egg has been a membrane (without shell). If this is the 'beginning of the egg', the question is was the 'chicken' at that time a bird, or it was a pterodactyl (still dinosaur) ... or some transitory species of a reptile (with six poisons).
If you make similar reasoning you may find out that the question 'Which comes first - the chicken or the egg?' is invalid question, because it has invalid assumptions, by assuming that either the egg or the 'chicken' has appeared first (somehow ... & out of nowhere), and has created after that the other one.
Noone can answer to invalid questions, for they ask about inferences made on invalid assumptions.
So, the idea of validating the assumptions before asking the question is not entirely for disposal.

1 Reply

@Herald,

It takes a chicken and a rooster to make a viable egg... Smile

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

It's all in the language.

So it would seem, Cis. The closer Science comes to religion, the more nearly apparent are semantic implications. To be sure there's some underlying abstraction we can't yet comprehend, but the closer we come, the more likely Her existence vs non- will prove a mere matter of opinion and definition

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@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

Why test people if God already knows the outcome? If a teacher already has your answers why administer the test? . . .

The test has been demanded by God's adversary. "And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." (Job 2:4, KJV; note Satan's allegation applies to all men.)

RexRed wrote:

God has foreknowledge how far into the future does that go? A million, a billion, a trillion years? More? Infinity and beyond?

Jehovah is capable of foreknowledge, but does not use it in the case of his intelligent creation. Otherwise, he could not offer us choice. "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19 NIV)

Too many other red herrings, non sequiturs, and strawmen to consider here.

1 Reply

@RexRed,

Since god is "all-knowing" of who will fail his test, all he needs to do is another Noah's world flood to get rid of the majority of humans who will fail, and transport those "good folks" to heaven - immediately.

No boat needed.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Trouble is, Cis, deciding who's good and who's not--since goodness is purely relative. The porker would consider you and me consummately evil where as Christians we hang him up by the back legs then cut his throat so he bleeds to death before butchering, cooking and eating him

They'd consider Intelligence a detriment, keeping Man in muddy pens before killing and eating but I doubt if they'd first torture us

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

That brings up a very interesting philosophical question about how god determines good and bad/evil. If one had to use the bible, nobody will be able to determine who the sinners are.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Although God is all-knowing and all-powerful, he suspended those powers when he created this "testing ground" called Earth by giving us freewill so that he could take notes to see how we do.

Where have you read in the Bible that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. This is the definition of Merriam-Webster and Farlex Dictionary about God ... and is not the Word of God. Nowhere in the Bible nor in any text the Word of God claims anything of the kind: I am the omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent being in your understanding of the world.
This is our interpretation of the things, and most probably comprisis some kind of a misunderstanding.

Omnipotent is met only once in the Bible:
... and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying Alleluia: for Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Omniscient and omnipresent are not mentioned at all. Besides that, the word is not part of the 'Word of God', but part of the interpretation of the prophets and represents only their perception of the 'psychotronic communication' with God (... and nothing else).
The Word of God claims:
- I am the Lord, your God (which may mean everything).
We interpret God as a supreme adminitrator of the universe, but it may mean something very different, like for example advisor, consultant, teacher, trainer, sensei, etc.
- God is not the God of the dead, but of the leaving.
All these things with Heaven and Hell do not concern the dead and any afterlife, but they concern rather the people living on the Earth, here and now.
- I am the Son of God
This is Jesus, and it may mean an ambassador, representative, messenger ... it may be even some role in the theatre that was going on by that time. Just don't ask me who has assigned that role.
- I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Everything depends on the interpretation of the breath of life. It may mean the essence of life, it may mean also the local species on top of the food chain; it may mean guidance for ethernal life ... of the species, etc.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

That brings up a very interesting philosophical question about how god determines good and bad/evil.

The apopdioctical existential pantheist responds that She probably isn't terribly concerned about this distinction. What we call Evil is the unfortunate result of the inevitable: Geology, chemistry, etc; things being the way they are because that's the way they have to be. Her choices are limited

Quote:

If one had to use the bible, nobody will be able to determine who the sinners are.

It was written by supposedly wise men, the wisest of whom who realized their followers wouldn't understand anything deeper than the symbolic. Their philosophy: At least let's not make things any worse than they are

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

That brings up a very interesting philosophical question about how god determines good and bad/evil. If one had to use the bible, nobody will be able to determine who the sinners are.

We are all sinners, CI. Prepare to be zapped!

Oh. Well, there is some hope for those willing to listen.

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@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

. . . It was written by supposedly wise men, the wisest of whom who realized their followers wouldn't understand anything deeper than the symbolic. Their philosophy: At least let's not make things any worse than they are

Actually, it was written by ordinary folks with the same trials and infirmities we all have. It was written not for an intellectual elite, but for the least sophisticated among us to make sense of this convoluted world.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

dalehileman wrote:
. . . It was written by supposedly wise men, the wisest of whom who realized their followers wouldn't understand anything deeper than the symbolic.

Actually, it was written by ordinary folks with the same trials and infirmities we all have. It was written not for an intellectual elite, but for the least sophisticated among us to make sense of this convoluted world.

What you call 'ordinary falks' is actually people preaching philosophy of life 2000-3000 years ahead of its time.
A lot of people don't understand this philosophy of life even nowadays.
Thus for example, the common fallacy is that if one believes in the money, and if one cheats & screws everybody around he will become fabulously rich. However the computer model ... and social practices of this behaviour show very different picture: nervous social relations, sub-optimal economic growth and incredible problems with getting rich ... mainly because of the circumstance that all the other people around you are thinking and behaving in the same way.
How could these 'ordinary falks' have guessed about these results 2000 years ago ... without computer modelling?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Why test people if God already knows the outcome? If a teacher already has your answers why administer the test? . . .
The test has been demanded by God's adversary. "And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." (Job 2:4, KJV; note Satan's allegation applies to all men.)
RexRed wrote:
God has foreknowledge how far into the future does that go? A million, a billion, a trillion years? More? Infinity and beyond?
Jehovah is capable of foreknowledge, but does not use it in the case of his intelligent creation. Otherwise, he could not offer us choice. "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19 NIV)

Too many other red herrings, non sequiturs, and strawmen to consider here.

God only uses foreknowledge only when it suits him/her...

Red herring? I see them as embarrassments to the hole-ie book...

Many religions believe the holy spirit is obtained by simple belief... The holy spirit is a means by which one is guided into doctrine.

I had it explained to me like this... So if you obtain the holy spirit and then go out and murder someone, God knew your future and did not actually give you the eternal spirit "gift"... Even if you spoke and manifested with tongues after the new birth experience... One might ask how can you manifest the sprite without the spirit born within?

Contrarily, if you joined a satanic s cult as a youngster and worshiped the devil with all your heart, soul, mind and tea leaves then had second thoughts as an adult, God did not allow you to become a child (sonship) of the devil because God in his/her foreknowledge knew you would one day want to renege...

How does this figure into your non involvement clause Neo?

So holy spirit is needed to open one's eyes to God but "denied" to some and they are later blamed and demonized. While one professing love for Satan is denied the unforgivable sin (accepting the devils as one's father [sonship])

Sonship is unforgivable because spiritual seed is eternal.

These are not red herrings... You cannot have two real biological fathers and the same goes for spiritual fathers. Ask and ye shall receive but it seems people ask and don't receive and knock and the door is shut in their face by a God who uses foreknowledge to either deny or supply depending on his/her free will, not your own...

God knows our hearts and supposedly we don't... According to the scriptures the devil knows the scriptures or "word" better than any man/woman... and knows that "God is not a man that he should lie", so the devil could have just asked God for the answers to the test in Job's case but instead God let the entire shenanigan play out... Are you saying the devil does not trust God? Should we then?

God knew Abraham's faith but still led him through the motions and in the process probably traumatized his son Issac or Ishmael depending on which religion you follow.

What kind of father does that to his son and then commands respect for such a heinous deed in later life? By today's standards terrifying a sibling in such a manner will wind you in jail and your neighbors (at lease most neighbors I know) will not praise you for your steadfastness and faith.

And what was the devil doing in the presence of God anyway, the same God whose name is too holy to even speak? God has some curious chums...

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@neologist,

Supposedly, it was written by ordinary folks chosen by god to record the word of god. Can't get around them logical merry-go-round.

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@RexRed,

And how about this "red herring" well maybe God simply does not answer YOUR prayers... But if you pay a priest enough, God will listen... Or, maybe God needs a rose pedal in heaven.

The all powerful, all knowing and everywhere present God of all creation will leave your prayers unanswered but something as imperceptibility small as a fungus cures many millions of infection...

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@RexRed,

I'll use one of your techinques here, Rex:

RexRed wrote:

neologist wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Why test people if God already knows the outcome? If a teacher already has your answers why administer the test? . . .
The test has been demanded by God's adversary. "And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." (Job 2:4, KJV; note Satan's allegation applies to all men.)
RexRed wrote:
God has foreknowledge how far into the future does that go? A million, a billion, a trillion years? More? Infinity and beyond?
Jehovah is capable of foreknowledge, but does not use it in the case of his intelligent creation. Otherwise, he could not offer us choice. "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19 NIV)

Too many other red herrings, non sequiturs, and strawmen to consider here.

God only uses foreknowledge only when it suits him... Your guess is as good as mine
Red herring? I see them as embarrassments to the hole-ie book...

Many religions believe the holy spirit is obtained by simple belief... The holy spirit is a means by which one is guided into doctrine. Straw man. Do not expect me to defend or explain.
I had it explained to me like this... So if you obtain the holy spirit and then go out and murder someone, God knew your future and did not actually give you the eternal spirit "gift"... Even if you spoke and manifested with tongues after the new birth experience... One might ask how can you manifest the sprite without the spirit born within? Straw man. Do not expect me to defend or explain.

Contrarily, if you joined a satanic s cult as a youngster and worshiped the devil with all your heart, soul, mind and tea leaves then had second thoughts as an adult, God did not allow you to become a child (sonship) of the devil because God in his/her foreknowledge knew you would one day want to renege... Straw man. Do not expect me to defend or explain.

How does this figure into your non involvement clause Neo? Straw man. Do not expect me to defend or explain.

So holy spirit is needed to open one's eyes to God but "denied" to some and they are later blamed and demonized. While one professing love for Satan is denied the unforgivable sin (accepting the devils as one's father [sonship]) Straw man. Do not expect me to defend or explain. But you have missed the point of the unforgiveable sin.

Sonship is unforgivable because spiritual seed is eternal. I have no idea what you are talking about
These are not red herrings... You cannot have two real biological fathers and the same goes for spiritual fathers. Ask and ye shall receive but it seems people ask and don't receive and knock and the door is shut in their face by a God who uses foreknowledge to either deny or supply depending on his/her free will, not your own... Straw man. Do not expect me to defend, explain, or understand what the heck you are saying

God knows our hearts and supposedly we don't... According to the scriptures the devil knows the scriptures or "word" better than any man/woman... and knows that "God is not a man that he should lie", so the devil could have just asked God for the answers to the test in Job's case but instead God let the entire shenanigan play out... Are you saying the devil does not trust God? Should we then? Apparently, Satan demanded proof, just as he has demanded to have us to be "sifted as wheat". He also demanded God's firstborn to prove his point. He has failed. So the questions should not be 'should we trust God?' but 'should we trust Satan?" Where are you putting your trust, Rex?
God knew Abraham's faith but still led him through the motions and in the process probably traumatized his son Issac or Ishmael depending on which religion you follow. Why would this be included in scripture if it were not to underscore the mental anguish God endured as he allowed his son to be executed as a blasphemer and traitor?
What kind of father does that to his son and then commands respect for such a heinous deed in later life? By today's standards terrifying a sibling in such a manner will wind you in jail and your neighbors (at lease most neighbors I know) will not praise you for your steadfastness and faith. Are you judging God's willingness to similarly provide his son in your behalf?

And what was the devil doing in the presence of God anyway, the same God whose name is too holy to even speak? God has some curious chums... Satan was created with heavenly access and was not thrown out until the account in Revelation. Look it up

You seem to have forgotten the little you formerly knew of the Bible, Rex. Good job of auto brainwash.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

It was written not for an intellectual elite, but for the least sophisticated among us to make sense of this convoluted world.

You could be quite right of course Neo though one might guess some special qualities in those who manage to get published

1 Reply

@neologist,

Considering the thousand or so Christian denominations alone and the people killing each other over jots and tittles, I think I will put my faith in science first and secondly maybe slight mysticism and if God does not honor that well I do not really feel bad about that. I certainly do not swallow the whole biblical premise whole... As the devil, I need to see it and not just get lip service from forked tongued holy books...

As for Job receiving back double than what he had.. How does that pay for the scars of seeing his first wife and children murdered? What kind of quality of life does that leave one? Have you ever tired to forget trauma?

All so God could prove Job was human after all and had a few faults. Look at the faults in the Bible?

If you call being secular, scientific and non racist, a straw man, well, so be it... I proudly accept that label...

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@dalehileman,

Neo wrote:

It was written not for an intellectual elite, but for the least sophisticated among us to make sense of this convoluted world.

Telling an unsophisticated person it is okay to stone homosexuals? Is that how God operates?

This is intellectually bankrupt... How does that make any sense?

Telling an unsophisticated person it is WRONG to own slaves and to FORCE others (by the sword) to submit to their religion is just too much for their tiny little brains to handle... (cynical)

Most children know how to respect others... Racism, chauvinism and religious intolerance is "learned" so hate and social intolerance is furthered by the elite not the unsophisticated...

1 Reply

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