giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 04:21 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
The gospels were written by eyewitnesses, not "several hundred years later".-


Quote:
So what?


Hey I was just answering your previous post where you incorrectly claimed they were written by "eye witnesses"
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 04:23 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
(PS- there are still other gospels floating around like Thomas's or Mary Magdalene's for people who want to read them, but they're nothing much to write home about)

No not much...They are just EXPLOSIVE!
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 04:30 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Thousands upon thousands of "eyewitnesses" in Dallas on November 22, 1963...cameras and recorders all over the place...

...and we still do not know for sure what happened.


Actually, we no for sure much about what happened...like Oswasld was not on the 6th floor and was not at 10th and Patton when Tippit was shot.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 05:12 pm
Quote:
Frank Apisa said: Thousands upon thousands of "eyewitnesses" in Dallas on November 22, 1963...cameras and recorders all over the place...
...and we still do not know for sure what happened..

Everybody knows pinko Oswald shot JFK, it's only the usual commie conspiracy theorists who say "no he didn't".
Same with 9/11, the commie consp-theorists say "the US govt did it".
And regarding Jesus, he was seen by thousands of people including the Roman garrison, but predictably commie/atheist consp-theorists say "no he wasn't".
They'll be telling us man never landed on the moon next..Smile
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 05:21 pm
Quote:
RexRed said: Since nearly every holy book has a creation story, what evidence makes one story true over another?

A guy called Jesus!
All other religions don't have the Son of God himself as a front man, so they're not worth a plugged nickel, they're empty just like Elvis concerts without Elvis..Smile
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 05:25 pm
Quote:
RexRed said: Luke proceeded to make **** up.

Prove it..Smile
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 05:33 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
Everybody knows pinko Oswald shot JFK,

Everybody??? I guess if by everybody you mean people who believe the phrase, "I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help you" then you may be right.

BTW, There is documented (Asst. U.S. Attorney, Dallas) eyewitness testimony by two TSBD employees (one supervisor) who testified showing LHO could not be on the 6th floor when JFK was shot.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 05:35 pm
Quote:
Romeo said: The gospels were written by eyewitnesses, not "several hundred years later".
Glujohn said: Hey I was just answering your previous post where you incorrectly claimed they were written by "eye witnesses"

Not sure I follow what you're trying to say mate, Gospel-writers Matthew and John were actual disciples, Mark was a friend of Jesus's right-hand man Peter, and Luke was a friend of Paul who spoke with the risen Jesus.
And when they all wrote their gospels, NOBODY ever came forward to say "Hey that's a pack of lies"
That's because Jesus was too BIG to be faked, heck he was almost as big as Elvis..Smile
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 06:28 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
Not sure I follow what you're trying to say mate, Gospel-writers Matthew and John were actual disciples, Mark was a friend of Jesus's right-hand man Peter, and Luke was a friend of Paul who spoke with the risen Jesus.
And when they all wrote their gospels, NOBODY ever came forward to say "Hey that's a pack of lies"



Ok, it is well established that "the gospels" are anonymous and that assiging the names M M L & J were done hundreds of years later.

97% of mark is repeated in the other gospels.

Where in the bible does it say that mark even knew jesus?

As for no one coming forward to challenge the gospels, it is hard to challenge what the emperor codified...but many gospels WERE challenged...the ones that WEREN'T codified! They were challenged by the Council of Nicea.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 06:36 pm
@giujohn,
Most were written 50 to 150AD. How anyone can write about any person after 50-plus years is a miracle in of itself. I can't even remember what I did two months ago!
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 07:12 pm
Quote:
Glujohn said: it is well established that "the gospels" are anonymous and that assiging the names M M L & J were done hundreds of years later.

Nah mate, don't get taken in by pinko/atheist/homo propaganda!
The facts about the gospel-writers are so well known that TV could do "This is Your Life" shows about them..Smile

Matthew the disciple, formerly Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) son of Alpheus, was formerly a tax collector (Luke 5:29-30) one of the 12 apostles handpicked by Jesus (Matthew 9:9), he wrote his gospel between c.60 and 80 AD after Mark wrote his first.

Mark, a friend of Jesus's righthand man Peter (1 Peter 5:13) also called John, Mark was a cousin of Barnabas (Colossians 4:10), a helpful co-worker of Paul (2 Timothy 4:11), and wrote his gospel c.60AD not long after some Apostolic Letters were written: i.e., James, Galatians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and Romans.
His mother was one of the Marys (Acts 12:12) from an influential and probably wealthy family, and so some speculated that the last supper was held in their home and that he was the young man in Mark 14:51-52 which is not in the other accounts.

Luke, a doctor (2 Tim. 4:11) and a gentile convert (Luke 1:2) probably by Paul who became his traveling companion (Acts 17:1; 20:5, 6-21:18 ). He wrote his gospel c.65 AD.

John the disciple, (John 13:23) son of Zebedee, the brother of James the "greater" (Matthew 4:21; 10:2; Mark 1:19; 3:17; 10:35) wrote his gospel c.95AD, the last to be written before Revelation. Also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27). His mother was probably Salome (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40).
He was one of the closest disciples to Jesus among the twelve (Matthew 17:1; 26:37; Mark 5:37; 13:3). He was zealous (Matthew 20:20-24; Mark 3:17; 10:35-41; Luke 9:49, 54). He became one of the leaders of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:9) and of the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1:11).
He was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote Revelation.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 07:24 pm
Quote:
Cicerone said: How anyone can write about any person after 50-plus years is a miracle in of itself.

Piece o' cake mate, there are books about historical figures in all the bookshops..Smile
For example I'm currently reading "Six Weeks" about WW1, it includes biographies of many army officers even though the war is 100 years old.
(Six weeks was how long they usually lasted before getting killed)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 08:11 pm
@giujohn,
I wrote:
Bible scholar?
giujohn wrote:
A question for me?
By what authority do you make these assertions?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 08:16 pm
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:
Evidence also shows that there were many "Gospels" floating around the holy lands in the first century but it took a pagan Roman emperor to pick the right ones.
So tell us. What books were listed in the Constantine Catalog?

Or are you just blowing smoke?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 08:33 pm
@neologist,
I've read the same thing. But it was many years ago, so I don't recall enough to be naming titles.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 08:37 pm
@edgarblythe,
Nor do I recall any Constantine Catalog. Apparently Rex does.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 09:12 pm
@neologist,
http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm


The Lost Books of the Bible

The Church View:
In the Catholic Church the version used is the Douay-Rheims Bible consisting of 73 books. In the Protestant church only the 66 books approved by the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1885, which today is known as the Authorized King James Bible, are used. No other books, neither the Apocrypha, which was included in the original King James Bible, nor the 22 books mentioned or quoted in the King James Bible, are considered inspired.

The Bible View:
There was no specific list or accounting of all the books that made up the Bible until the commission of the first Bible by the Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century AD. The books that make up the Authorized King James Bible were chosen by men, not divine forces. The language of the King James Bible is obscure and limited.

An Introduction

Human history has allowed precious few ancient religious writings to survive the onslaught of the more aggressive and powerful religious forces, which seek only to gain territory and wealth. Genocide and cultural eradication always go hand in hand with missionary zeal. In many cases every trace of the conquered society's religious writings, practices, icons, and even buildings were destroyed, in the name of conversion from worship of gods considered evil, and religious customs labeled as heresies. What generally results from past crusades is the conqueror's religion replacing or predominantly blending with the conquered culture's former religious practice, making the its religion almost unrecognizable. Christianity falls into the latter category, having been the victim of the Roman Empire, under the Emperor Constantine, who blended the Christian Church with the institutionalized "pagan" practices of Rome and eliminated any semblance of either the Jewish religious influence or the first church Jesus established during his ministry.

The First Reformation

After solidifying his position to gain complete control of the western portion of the empire in 312, the Emperor Constantine instituted the Edict of Milan, a "Magna Carta of religious liberty," which eventually changed the Empire’s religion and put Christianity on an equal footing with paganism. Almost overnight the position of the Christian Church was reversed from persecuted to legal and accepted. Constantine began to rely on the church for support, and it on him for protection. The Church and the Empire formed an alliance, which remains to this day. Very rapidly, the laws and policies of the Empire and the doctrine of the Church became one with Constantine as the interpreter of both law and policy. This was accomplished by eliminating hundreds of books thought to be against "Church" doctrine and watering down what remained by blending Christian beliefs and practice with long established Roman sanctioned pagan worship.
Constantine believed that the Church and the State should be as close as possible. Constantine tolerated pagan practices, keeping pagan gods on coins and retaining his pagan high priest title "Pontifex Maximus" in order to maintain popularity with his former subjects. In 330 he began an assault on paganism but used a clever method of persuasion to force people to follow the laws by combining pagan worship with Christianity. He made December 25th, the birthday of the pagan Unconquered Sun god, the official holiday now celebrated as the birthday of Jesus. He also replaced the weekly day of worship by making rest on Saturday unlawful and forcing the new religion to honor the first, not the seventh day, as a day of rest. As a way of defining his concept of the new universal religion he simply classified everything "Jewish" to be an abomination. Considering almost every aspect of the Bible is "Jewish" by association, every doctrinal biblical principle was changed or eliminated. After 337 Constantine increased his purging of the more obvious aspects of paganism.
Through a series of Universal Councils, he and his successors completely altered doctrine without regard to biblical edict, set up a church hierarchy of his own design, and established a set of beliefs and practices, which are the basis for all mainstream Bible-based churches. The separation of the Protestants and the Roman Church caused a physical split but the beliefs and practices established by Constantine remained almost identical. Very little has changed since the 4th century Councils changed the face of Christianity. An effective practice instituted was the purging of any book in the formerly accepted biblical works, over 80% of the total, that church leaders felt did not fit within their new concept of Christianity. The doctrines and practices remaining in the surviving books were effectively eradicated by simply changing them by replacing clear scripture with Church-sanctioned doctrine.

Forbidden Not Lost

Constantine began what was to become a centuries long effort to eliminate any book in the original Bible that was considered unacceptable to the new doctrine of the church. At that time, it is believed there were up to 600 books, which comprised the work we now know as the Bible. Through a series of decisions made by the early church leadership, all but 80 of those books, known as the King James Translation of 1611, were purged from the work, with a further reduction by the Protestant Reformation bringing the number to 66 in the "Authorized" King James Bible.
What we now have in Bible-based religion, whether labeled as "Catholic", or Protesting Catholic, known as “Protestant", is unrecognizable form either the Hebrew religion, now known as the Jewish religion, or the church established at Jerusalem by the Apostles and disciples of Jesus. The practices of this first church are not practiced by any major religion and they are almost unknown, despite being clearly outlined in the existing New Testament. In its place are doctrines and practices first established in the first "true" Reformation of Christianity begun by Constantine.
There is much controversy over how many books the Bible should actually contain but considering the depth and scope of those few works remaining in the "accepted" Bible, we see but a fragment of incredible wisdom and history. A study of the Lost Books of the Bible is incomplete without a clear understanding that this is not a matter of simple loss, but a campaign by the Roman Catholic Church to purge books variously classified as heretical, dangerous, and corruptive. To the public they are “lost”; to the Church they are “forbidden”. Although the exact number of books purged is known only to the Church, and not shared knowledge, some can be determined by the discovery of their presence in the church prior to the reformation resulting in what became known as the Roman "Universal" Church.
One of the more obvious forms of discovery comes from the surviving books themselves, which sight works not present in the existing collection. Also many do not know that the Apocryphal books were actually included in the King James translation until they were officially purged by the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1885. Other writings also connect many books to the first church. Whatever the number before the purge by the formation of Catholicism by Constantine; even one lost book is a great loss indeed.
We claim no expertise concerning the authenticity of any the lost books and leave this judgment to the reader. We do, however, strongly reject the self-proclaimed authority of any dogmatically motivated and church-controlled mortals who think themselves qualified to make such decisions. One of the most logical and realistic concepts in the Bible is the caution that one should prove all things. We believe that proving the veracity of a given thing is an individual responsibility, which must not, and should not be the duty of those who think themselves better judges.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 09:22 pm
@edgarblythe,
The 66 books were well established long before 1885. Very long
And the difference between Catholic and "protestant" Bibles lies in the "OT" books.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 09:39 pm
@neologist,
There were perhaps 600 books at one time, according to the link.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 10:47 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
The 66 books were well established long before 1885. Very long
And the difference between Catholic and "protestant" Bibles lies in the "OT" books.


Yes, you take the canonicity of the Old Testament from the Masoretes.
0 Replies
 
 

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