pillage at the hands of both the Japanese and the KMT?

Forums: English, Esl, Grammar, Idiom, Idioms
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Should it be rewritten as "pillage by both the Japanese and the KMT"?

Context:

The implementation of communism in the villages was
based not only on agrarian reform but included the cancellation
of peasants' debts, the reduction of land rents, and the ameliora-tion of the status of women. The soldiers of the Red Army
taught the peasants literacy skills, helped them with the harvests
and the wars on locusts and, after 1931 and the beginning of
hostilities with Japan, afforded them protection from pillage at
harvest time at the hands of both the Japanese and the KMT
forces.

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Type: Question • Score: 4 • Views: 3,728 • Replies: 41

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View best answer, chosen by oristarA

@oristarA,

"at the hand of" / "at the hands of" are idioms

http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-the-hand-of

Quote:

What does "at the hand of" mean?
Also, at the hands of. Performed by or at the agency of, as in The slaves suffered greatly at the hands of their new masters. This idiom was first recorded about 1035.

I would say that you should not consider rewriting that portion of the sentence.

I suggest that you purchase a dictionary of idioms.

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@oristarA,

You could make the substitution without changing the meaning. The original sounds better.

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"At the hands of" is not only an idiom but also a cliché and can be replaced here with 'by'.

2 Replies

@contrex,

There's no greater cliche than that of prescriptivists spouting off about cliches.

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@contrex,

Quote:

"At the hands of" is not only an idiom but also a cliché and can be replaced here with 'by'.

I'm with Contrex on this one. "At the hands of" is not a good choice of words here; "by" has the advantage of being both simpler and better, imho.

1 Reply

@McTag,

Quote:

"by" has the advantage of being both simpler and better, imho.

'simpler' and better - pretty nebulous reasoning, McTag.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Oh for goodness sake

it's simpler....it does the job in fewer words
it's better...in my humble opinion

QED; no more reasoning required, even non-nebulous.

2 Replies

@McTag,

Nebulous reasoning doesn't get better with repetition, McTag.

So much for English idioms. Remember kids, never ever use idioms. They always have too many words.

1 Reply

@JTT,

"Suffer at the hands of..." you hear.

"Pillage at the hands of..." you don't.

It's not an idiom used like that, it's an awkward and unnecessarily wordy phrase.
Please refrain from trying to correct people unless you have something useful to say.

1 Reply

@McTag,

Quote:

"Suffer at the hands of..." you hear.

"Pillage at the hands of..." you don't.

It's not an idiom used like that, it's an awkward and unnecessarily wordy phrase.
Please refrain from trying to correct people unless you have something useful to say.

"Suffer at the hands of..."
About 3,160,000 results

About 63,100 results
"Pillage at the hands of..."

It's not at all surprising that 'suffer' occurs more often than 'pillage'. The chances of someone getting pillaged are much much smaller than the chances of someone suffering.

Quote:

It's not an idiom used like that,

That wasn't your initial beef. And we see that it is used like that.

Quote:

it's an awkward and unnecessarily wordy phrase.

Sometime in your prescriptive background you heard this admonition and it stuck with you, but it's just silly. To follow such a notion means that every idiom is lost to us.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Well that was an attempt at being useful, although basically bollocks.

2 Replies

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Well that was an attempt at being useful, although basically bollocks.

When he's excited, he'd usually be lost in enthusiasm. Razz

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@McTag,

This is always you and Contrex when you find yourself up a stump, McTag.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Good morning. While I don't understand that, I'm not aware of being wrong in this instance. Far from it.

I had another thought on this this morning ,about the usage of the phrase "at the hands of".
To me, it denotes passage of time.

We have depredations at the hands of, damage at the hands of, suffering at the hands of. Actions happening over a period of time.
Otherwise, I'd prefer the use of the simple "by".

She died by her own hand.
He was killed by his pet tiger.
They were pillaged by a neighbouring tribe.

1 Reply

@McTag,

Good morning to you, McTag.

Quote:

We have depredations at the hands of, damage at the hands of, suffering at the hands of. Actions happening over a period of time.

And despite your notion, you've ignored that we also have "Pillage at the hands of...", About 63,100 results.

There's no reason that 'pillage' can't happen over time. In fact, it did for the Japanese were in China for some time.

Quote:

Otherwise, I'd prefer the use of the simple "by".

Can you not see how useless personal opinions are for ESLs?

2 Replies

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

In fact, it did for the Japanese were in China for some time.

Does "for the Japanese were in China" mean "because the Japanese were in China"?

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

you've ignored that we also have "Pillage at the hands of...", About 63,100 results.

That serves to indicate that there are around 63,000 misguided people out there, which doesn't surprise me in the least. And you're adding to the count every time you post. See how trouble spreads?

I can't easily explain why the phrase sounds clunky and wrong. And should be avoided, especially since there is a simpler, clearer alternative.

It's like saying "he underwent chartered accountancy at the hands of Deloitte and Touche".

1 Reply

@oristarA,

Quote:

Does "for the Japanese were in China" mean "because the Japanese were in China"?

Yes. In this case, "for" means "because".

See how important word, and phrase, selection is?

Mc(at your service)Tag

1 Reply

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Quote:
Does "for the Japanese were in China" mean "because the Japanese were in China"?

Yes. In this case, "for" means "because".

See how important word, and phrase, selection is?

Mc(at your service)Tag

Thank you sir.
The last line makes me remember Joe Nation whom I've not seen for quite a long while.

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pillage at the hands of both the Japanese and the KMT?

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