19
   

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2019 04:04 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Sorry. There are simple contradictions to your statements that doesn't make any sense. Simply put, a god should never punish humans he created, knowing that "sin" is a part of man as "free agents," and "sin" is a man-made concept with contradictions that became outdated thousands of years ago. "Thou shalt not kill." "Kill all infidels." There are thousands of gods around the world. The christian god happens to be one of the "new" ones. Beyond all that, Homo sapiens evolved from primates. In the beginning, we were not "human;" we evolved into what we are today. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6395/1296. Trust in science, not in a 2,000 year old book that didn't have the tools or knowledge about the world we live in today. https://www.space.com/24854-how-old-is-earth.html
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2019 04:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Let me ask you a simple question, would you like to be a slave or have freedom?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2019 04:47 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
That's one of silliest questions asked of me! My laughter is my response.
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2019 05:03 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Let us cut to the chase. Do you believe that Allah will put sinners into a place of everlasting pain?

If so, what satisfaction does Allah get from inflicting this torture upon lesser beings than itself? In other words, what purpose does it serve Allah to be the inflictor of such agony?

And before answering, consider that such a punishment cannot be for the purpose of teaching the sinner a lesson since there will be no future scenario in which the sinner will be able to apply his/her newly learned lesson. Therefore, Allah will be inflicting pain and agony because he desires it. What does this tell you about Allah?
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 08:19 am
@cicerone imposter,
There was a reason I asked that question and you probably know that already. All human beings want to have freedom and when Allah has given us that free will to choose whatever we want to do, we question why Allah has not guided us? We have free will to choose my friend and you are choosing not to believe in your creator. That's the choice you are making at your own, no one is forcing that choice on you.
On the other hand, all creations around us have no choice but to submit to the will of God. Day and night come not at their own but at the will of Allah. Sun and moon rises and sets not at their own but at the will of God. In other words they have no free will.
This also shows human beings are superior to all other creations because we have given that free will to choose at our own between good and evil. We have certain rules within our family structure. We have rules to follow with a county or state or country. Their are rules which clearly define what will be punishment if we break certain laws. Does that mean, the country we live in hates us and want to punish us all? Certainly not, but yet many go to prisons for the choices they make. Similarly there are rules and regulation set by God and if we choose not to follow those rules then its not God but us who should be blamed for earning the punishment by making our choices using the free will we have been given.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 08:21 am
@Glennn,
I gave my answer in response to cicerone imposter, see link below

https://able2know.org/topic/215426-19#post-6859536
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 08:33 am
@cicerone imposter,
I have denounced these myths by using scientific principals which for some reason you could not get over.

Evolutionary theory ignores fundamental law of physics.  The mechanism offered by evolution totally contradicts the second law of thermodynamics or law of entropy.  The theory of evolution says that disordered, dispersed, and lifeless atoms and molecules spontaneously came together over time, in a particular order, to form extremely complex molecules such as proteins, DNA, and RNA, whereupon millions of different living species with even more complex structures gradually emerged.  According to the theory of evolution, this supposed process—which yields a more planned, more ordered, more complex and more organized structure at each stage—was formed all by itself under natural conditions.  The law of entropy makes it clear that this so-called natural process utterly contradicts the laws of physics.

The Entropy Law says that evolution dissipates the overall available energy for life on this planet.  Our concept of evolution is the exact opposite.  We believe that evolution somehow magically creates greater overall value and order on earth. This indicate that evolution is a dogmatic belief rather than a scientific thesis.

Educate yourself with basic scientific principals before you make any such claims.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 08:47 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Evolutionary theory ignores fundamental law of physics.
Thanks for my good laugh for today. Nature has nothing to do with "physics." It's called nature, because it involves all the issues of how our planet reacts to outside forces. That's the reason there's a "black hole." How humans experience our lives is different than what our environment is actually doing. The human mind can only respond to our environment. Everybody perceives what is true and factual is based on our culture; they are the creation of societies; more specifically, language and culture.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 09:08 am
@cicerone imposter,
You are flip flopping quite a lot. I though at some point you mentioned evolutionary theory and science and when I present an argument which proves otherwise you tend to put evolutionary theory in death bed and goes on to believe everything is result of nature ( in other words you believe in a creator but for you that creator is nature).

Moments ago, science was everything for you and now physics has nothing to do with your beliefs and nature.

Fine, What is nature? If by nature you mean physical laws of this universe and everything around us then it should be clear that same nature is following certain laws and it can't contradict those laws imposed by someone (I call it God). Islam does not denounce nature and its physical laws. On the contrary, Islam invites people to observe the nature because it will only affirm the existence of ONE GOD.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 09:47 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
I gave my answer in response to cicerone imposter

You did not answer the questions I have asked of you. I will try again to get you to answer.

Do you believe that Allah will put sinners into a place of everlasting pain? The answer is yes or no. So what is your answer?

What satisfaction does Allah get from inflicting this torture upon lesser beings than itself? In other words, what purpose does it serve Allah to be the inflictor of such agony? So far, you have avoided answering this question.

Also, since there will be no future scenario in which the sinner will be able to apply his/her newly learned lesson, such a punishment cannot be for the purpose of teaching the sinner a lesson. Therefore, Allah will be inflicting pain and agony because he desires it. What does this tell you about Allah?

Begin by answering the first question.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 10:02 am
@Glennn,
c.i. raises his hand to answer the question. The god of the Bible uses fear to get his followers to become slaves to his teachings. The reward to follow his message is "everlasting life." It seems quite contradictory to promise "everlasting life" to humans who have a finite life span. Do babies saved stay at their age, or do they grow old and die a normal death? Do seniors live forever in the last age of earth life, or do they become young again? What age? Is there an age range in heaven? Living in peace and harmony without any kind of conflict may sound "heavenly," but I believe most humans would become bored after 100 years. "Can't we just get along?"
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 10:54 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
Do you believe that Allah will put sinners into a place of everlasting pain? The answer is yes or no. So what is your answer?


The answer is "Yes" because after all warning they still decided not to believe. If a law in our country can decide to punish the people who do wrong, Allah has every right to punish His own creation who decided to disobey Him.

Quote:
What satisfaction does Allah get from inflicting this torture upon lesser beings than itself? In other words, what purpose does it serve Allah to be the inflictor of such agony? So far, you have avoided answering this question.


Allah is the Most Merciful, Most Beneficent, Oft-Forgiving. He doesn't wish to punish anybody. We are His creation. Why should He punish His own creation? The simple condition is that we Must believe in Him. We must worship ONLY HIM and HIM alone. He alone deserves worship. He is the sole Creator, Sustainer and Ruler of all the worlds He has created. He has no off-spring, no parents and no partner.

If some one believes in Him like this and believes in the FIVE pillars of Islam, he is expected to be forgiven provided he sincerely repents. Tears of repentance and remorse wash away sins and disobedience.

I am unaware of any circumstance in which an Atheist, Polytheist, or non-believer of any variety can enter Paradise. Hell in Islam is very similar to hell in Christianity and promotes the worst kinds of pain and torture.

Additionally, believers (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) who commit sins and do not seek clemency or perform repentance are also subject to being thrown in the hellfire with the others. However, these groups have the opportunity to "work off their sins" and have a possibility of escaping eternal torture.

Why should the Most Merciful get pleasure from punishing His creation? Doesn't Allah opens the door to repentance all the way to our last breath? Will a sadist give the opportunity to repent and receive mercy? Fortunately, Allah is not a sadist. Believers or nonbelievers get equal portion of Allah's mercy in life and both have free choice.

Quote:
Also, since there will be no future scenario in which the sinner will be able to apply his/her newly learned lesson, such a punishment cannot be for the purpose of teaching the sinner a lesson. Therefore, Allah will be inflicting pain and agony because he desires it. What does this tell you about Allah?


You need to understand the purpose of your life in this world. Quran clearly says the purpose of this life is to test who among us will obey Allah. Believers will have paradise and non-believers will go to hell because of the choices they made in this world. In both cases, the life is eternal. Quran has very clear description of hell and after reading that if you still want to take your chances, that is up to you. Quran also says that people is hell will ask to be send back to this world so that they can do what Allah asked them to do but we only had one life to live in this world. Your only chance is now and don't tell me you have never heard about Quran or Islam or Allah. You did but chose not to believe.

If you refuse to believe, it's okay. No one judges you in this world. It's simple, you read, listen, and understand the sentence.

You already understand that you'll be punished for being like that. But then, you speak ill and make fun Quran and Allah. It's okay, for you and your atheist group and community. Only the Owner of later life can judge you fairly in this case and there is no one to be blamed but you and I because of the choices we made in this world.

You can deny everything but remember, your death is imminent and no one has ever escaped death (another sign for us to reflect only if we believe in life after death). You may die today, tomorrow, next year, next 10 years, etc. Those times are very close if you think. Don't ever make assumptions that after death is a zero space if you're not dead yet. It's not valid.
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 11:28 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
The answer is "Yes" because after all warning they still decided not to believe. If a law in our country can decide to punish the people who do wrong, Allah has every right to punish His own creation who decided to disobey Him.

If I break a law in my country, I am not sent to a dungeon where I will be tortured with fire for an eternity. The reason I will not be tortured in that manner is because there are laws against cruel and unusual punishment.

Once again you are failing to understand that, according to you, your Allah will be overseeing the eternal torture of lesser beings than itself purely for no other reason than to satisfy itself. You fail to understand what kind of a being that makes Allah.

Unlike in my country, Allah's punishment of eternal torture by fire is not to teach the sufferer a lesson. It's Allah desiring to inflict eternal torture for the sake of nothing but his own pleasure. You have a problem when it comes to seeing the difference between a merciful being and a being who is appeased by the torture of his own creation. You believe that Allah is sadistic, yet holy.

You portray Allah as a being who is so insecure that he would go on a rampage of torture to exact revenge on those who do not acknowledge him. You are exhibiting the mindset of a child who is easily fooled into believing that a being can be both merciful and horribly hateful at the same time. You hold conflicting thoughts in your mind and you refuse to think about it; presumably because your fear of Allah has caused you to believe whatever you are told to believe in order to not incur his wrath. You are faithful to your fear, not Allah.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 11:30 am
@cicerone imposter,
God for all Abrahamic religions is same. It is the mercy of God that he has informed us about hell and the punishment in hell. You have read all this and you made the choice not to believe in it.

Heaven and hell is a different world without time and space ( an unseen world and part of Muslims belief in unseen things such as God, angels, soul etc.)
You are trying to make sense of them by using time and space of this world which is impossible. Everything in this world points to one thing and that is we are all mortal. Life after death is eternal. Our body will have different characteristics. That's why Quran says that no one knows what Allah holds for believers in heaven. Quran also give some examples of things we may see in heaven but the purpose for that is just so that we can have an idea when with the limited worldly knowledge.

Regarding age, all humans will be of same age and height. They will not age because aging is the phenomena of this world.

Anyways I feel like we are going in circles. Existing of God and existing of hell and heaven can be proven. I am not trying to force my views on anyone but only trying to discuss things with logic and reason. If you have better reason and logic to prove your point, please present those. I respect all different views and have no reason to refute anything which will make sense. May be we should discuss one thing at a time so that it can be beneficial. How about proving there is only one God or you make your attempt to prove that there is no God?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 11:39 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Regarding age, all humans will be of same age and height. They will not age because aging is the phenomena of this world.
Let me ask you. If an infant was just born, they stay the same for eternity? That's not a "life" by any meaning of the word.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 11:43 am
@cicerone imposter,
We are arguing on trivial issues. As I said our main focus should be first to discuss does God really exist? What's the proof? If you believe it does not exist, what's your proof?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 11:46 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Sure, thousands of gods have been created by men. What's your point? Nobody can provide any evidence of a god. Besides all that, humans evolved from primates. There's evidence for it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 11:50 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
All human beings want to have freedom...
. History has proven that freedom is based on the culture in which a person lives, and what the real definition of "freedom" is. I'll expand later; we're going out to lunch.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 12:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Sure, thousands of gods have been created by men. What's your point? Nobody can provide any evidence of a god. Besides all that, humans evolved from primates. There's evidence for it.


Not again, we just discussed this and you said that you don't believe in evolution and now you are bringing the same argument again? Please go back and look at my response which proves that theory of evolution has no scientific basis.

There are no fossils to directly link the descent of man from the same ancestor as apes and there is a constant search for what is termed as the ‘Missing Link.’ Also, there are no fossils showing definite mid steps in the transition from ape to Man. Scientists have failed to produce any new species of life in their laboratory by controlling and changing the environment. Famous examples, are those of Richard Goldschmidt and experiments on fruit flies, which have remained unsuccessful.

There are many holes in the Theory of Evolution. For example, if the Theory of Evolution were true, the nipples of male human beings would have disappeared because of inactivity thousands of years ago. However, they still remain today.

Anyways let's focus on something which is more logical and proven not just on mere scientific hypothesis theories like evolution which is NOT PROVEN SCIENTIFICALLY. If you know the method of scientific research, this falls under the category of a hypothesis which has not been proven for reasons I mentioned above. In science there are many hypothesis and nothing becomes an established fact until it is proven. Evolution is one such unproven hypothesis.
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 02:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:


For quite a while now we have had the stats showing good reductions in hunger and poverty.

This global climate change might put a stick in pour spokes depending on if the world can unite more or not. If not, we might all be screwed and not just the next generation.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
 

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