19
   

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

 
 
steven bill
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 11:44 am
@RexDraconis111,
logically speaking, you are right. spiritually speaking, you are dumb.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 01:14 pm
@count markovalley,
Can you define God's attributes? I mean when you think of God, what attributes comes in your mind?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 06:19 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Omnipotent. That's what makes him fail. Anything that can keep track of all humanity every second of the day is impossible. It's meaningless.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 07:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That’s one of the important attribute of Allah and I think I know why you pick this attribute. If you read Bible then yes you have several occasions when God seem to be impotent as I will reference in my response below and this is one of many reasons to prove Bible is not the word of God. I will first define this attribute and then provide references both from Quran and bible to explain my point hoping that helps to see the difference.

One of the names and attributes of God is “the Omnipotent”. A god for this universe should be described as “competent” and “almighty”. An impotent, incompetent or incapable being cannot create or provide for this world.

The Omnipotent in Islam

There are many Qur’anic verses which confirm that God (“Allah” in Arabic) is “Competent” over all things. For example, in the Qur’an, we read:

Say, "O Allah, Owner of Sovereignty, You give sovereignty to whom You will and You take sovereignty away from whom You will. You honor whom You will and You humble whom You will. In Your hand is [all] good. Indeed, You are over all things Competent. (Aal `Imran 3:26)

We also read:

And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is over all things Competent. (Aal `Imran 3:189)

In the Qur’an, God is also described as “Omnipotent”. We read:

And verily, warners came unto the people of Pharaoh. But, they belied all Our miracles. Therefore, We seized them with a Seizure of the All-Mighty, the Omnipotent. (Al-Qamar 54:41-42)

We also read:

As to the Righteous they will be in the midst of Gardens and Rivers, in an Assembly of Truth in the Presence of a Sovereign Omnipotent. (Al-Qamar 54:54-55)

The Omnipotent in Christianity

In the New Testament, the Bible quotes Lady Mary, the Virgin, as describing God as “Mighty” for He did great things for her. He made her a mother for a fetus without a husband for her or a father for the fetus.

We read: And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation.” (Luke 1:46-50)

The Bible also quotes Jesus as describing God as “Able” to raise up human beings from stones. We read: “Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.” (Matthew 3:8-9)

While the Bible tells us that Jesus stated that God was able to raise up human beings from stones, it narrates that Jesus did not transform stones into bread when Satan asked him to do so to prove that he was really the son of God.

We read: Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” (Matthew 4:3-4)

There are many positions where Jesus affirmed that he was not omnipotent, that is to say he did not have an innate ability, nor could he do anything without empowerment by God. For example, in the New Testament, we read: Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. (John 5:19)

We also read: “I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30)

Indeed, we do not find the Bible describing Jesus as “mighty” without describing him as a “man” and a “prophet” in the same position. We read: “What things?” he asked. And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people. (Luke 24:19)

Since God was described as “Mighty” by Mary, the Virgin, even before the birth of Jesus, Jesus admitted that he did not have innate ability to do anything, we do not find Jesus described as “mighty” without having him described as a “man” and a “prophet”, how can Jesus be God? Can a being who is incompetent or derives his competence from another being be God?

In conclusion Quran clearly describes that God is all powerful and have knowledge of everything which has happened, is happening and will happen until day of judgement. Let me finish my response by quoting one of most powerful verse in Quran which is 2:255

Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. (2:255)
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 07:43 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Allah is great compared to who?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 08:34 pm
@Glennn,
Excellent question.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 08:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Here's a even better one:

If Allah knows the beginning to the end, and the end right from the beginning, what was the point of his creation action?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 10:55 pm
@Glennn,
Mine is very simple. If gods were created long after Homo sapiens been around for some 200,000 years, what was the purpose for the creation of the christian god only 2,000 years ago? History of religions. Which religion came first in the world?
Religion in China & India. This principle of order is also paramount in the world's oldest religion still being practiced today: Hinduism (known to adherents as Sanatan Dharma, 'Eternal Order'). Although often viewed as a polytheistic faith, Hinduism is actually henotheistic.
Religion in the Ancient World - Ancient History Encyclopedia
https://www.ancient.eu/religion/
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 09:01 am
@Glennn,
There is no comparison with our creator. If you dare to compare, try to create any of the creation Allah has created. Try to make a human hair?
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 09:54 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
If Allah knows the beginning to the end, and the end right from the beginning, what was the point of his creation action?


Its a good question and to understand the answer you need to understand the purpose of our life in this world. As I stated in my previous posts, Allah has created life and death to test us that who will follow His guidance and as a result go to paradise and who will choose not to follow and as a result go to hell fire.

Now you may ask that Allah knew this already so why did he created us knowing that many of us will fail and go to hell. This is where we need to understand Islamic ideology of Qadar (Destiny) and Qada (Decree) and free will.

Let me explain the meaning of these terms first.

QADAR“ is the knowledge and recording by Allah Almighty of everything from pre-eternity to post eternity by knowing the state, time, place, attributes and features of everything in the tablet of qadar called lawh al-mahfuz (the preserved tablet).”

QADA“ is Allah’s invention and creation of this pre-eternal recording and destiny.”

Qadar is the result of Allah’s knowledge and qada is the manifestation of Allah’s power. That is, Allah wrote with His knowledge and created with His power. Writing is qadar and creating is qada. 

For example, the time of birth and death of a person is determined beforehand. This determination is qadar. The birth of a person when its time is due and his death when its time is due, namely, the creation of birth and death is qada.

PARTIAL FREE WILL is the ability to act freely and the freedom of choice given by Allah to man.

To put it in a more detailed way, Allah gave man many abilities such as reading, writing, running, eating, drinking and sitting. Each of these abilities is named as "universal will”. It is necessary not to confuse the phrase "universal will” with Allah’s universal will.  
Allah’s universal will means He can do anything He wishes and nothing can prevent His order.
Man’s “universal will” is the abilities given to him. When man takes action to do something with one of those abilities, the “universal will” becomes partial. Here, "partial" does not mean "smallness"; it means "specificity".
For example, man has the ability to eat and drink. This is "universal will." When man starts to drink water thanks to this ability, this ability becomes "partial". Now, man has used his universal in a specific way and started to drink water. This is named "partial free will". Here, man is free. Man can drink water or he can prefer to drink a forbidden beverage.  What makes him responsible is the authority of choice given to him.

Hopefully it is simple to understand so far.

Now let me give some simple examples to make this subject easy for my atheist brothers and sisters.

A scientist invents an instrument, he knows that if its designed for 220V and if some one applies 480V to it, then that particular instrument will burn or get damaged. The inventor knows the response which the device will give based upon the inputs provided.

If ordinary man with limited capabilities can do that, then why not Allah the supreme creator of this worlds can know how will we behave, whether we will pass or we will fail the test?. When he created us he know how will we behave, will we pass or will we fail, similar to as the inventor of the instrument knows whether if some tests are applied to his device will it pass those tests or it will fail.

Allah also says that, we have been given free will, its our choice if we want to accept the truth then we will benefit if we don't then we are the loser's.

Finally, if a teacher says that so and so students will pass in the test's to be conducted and so & so will fail the tests then its not that the teacher wants them to fail, but as teacher knows the performance of the students in the class, so the teacher can predict and know who will be through and who is going to be stalled. Teacher wants all of them to pass after they work hard and study, so does Allah, teacher wants them to award the degree and Allah wants them to award the Heaven. If the students fail they will lose there one year and if we humans will fail we will deserve to be in hell fire.

Quran also says that on the day of judgement, justice will be done and anyone who will be going to hell fire will know exactly why they are going and they will have no one but themselves to be blamed.


To all the Atheist out there, its my humble request give Islam a chance and see how your problem will disappear.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 11:21 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Forget about Allah. Study the science on the evolution of Homo sapiens. The creation of Allah is too young based on how long Homo sapiens walked this planet. The creation of thousands of other gods by country and culture should be a clue, that Homo sapiens are prone to seek something beyond our life on this planet. Study the gods created by all the different countries and cultures; that's the norm. Religion is an accident of birth. If your country and culture are predominantly one religion, that's what follows for future generations. Children follow the religion of the parents. Show me different, and I will listen.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 01:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
In one my other posts I have refuted your theory of evolution based on thermodynamic laws. I will like to see your response to that. Below is the link to my rebuttal to evolution theory:
https://able2know.org/topic/51117-44#post-6857778

To answer this particular post, I would like to use your scientific logic and prove that Quran has to be divine but it does not contradict proven scientific facts where as other religious book goes against modern science. I can show you examples of many proven scientific facts in Quran which are hard to even think about 1400 years ago.

Let me give one example and if you are interested I can provide more if you are interested or you can search in YouTube about Quran and scientific miracles:

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them.  This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. 

For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water.  When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics.  The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth.

Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.

The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress.  God has said:

“He has set free the two seas meeting together.  There is a barrier between them.  They do not transgress.” (Quran 55:19-20)

But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier.  God has said in the Quran:

“He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter.  And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.” (Quran 25:53)

One may ask, why did the Quran mention the partition when speaking about the divider between fresh and salt water, but did not mention it when speaking about the divider between the two seas?

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet.  It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.”  This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.

This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc.  The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea.  Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 03:01 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
In one my other posts I have refuted your theory of evolution based on thermodynamic laws. I will like to see your response to that. Below is the link to my rebuttal to evolution theory:
https://able2know.org/topic/51117-44#post-6857778
It's not "my" theory of evolution. It's based on what science have observed and concluded. Gods and religions are many. There is no way to prove any god exists. Evolution is proven by evidence. Charles Darwin's finches is a good example. It's "survival of the fittest" or those that learn to acclimate to their environment. God is an unknown quantity. Man has created too many of them. As I've said before many times, religion is an accident of birth. Children follow the god of their parents. Gods are everywhere and nowhere. Nobody really knows if none, one or a thousand exists; it's only in the mind of the beholder. When there are too many gods, I conclude that it's human nature to seek gods.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 03:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
If you read the article you will see that theory of revolution is proven wrong by using thermodynamic laws. God can only be one and it can be proven with logic, reasoning and science. I gave one example from Quran and there are many more. Anyways it all depends how sincerely you are looking for the answers.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 04:03 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
I didn't know there was a "theory of revolution." God is not reasoning and science. If that were so, babies would not be born with disease, deformities, and die at birth.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 01:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I didn't know there was a "theory of revolution." God is not reasoning and science. If that were so, babies would not be born with disease, deformities, and die at birth.


A worthy connection.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 09:48 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
You miss my point. My question to you is why would a being create something that it already knows the outcome of?

Also, why would a being create lesser beings than itself, knowing full well from the very beginning which ones it is going to torture severely for eternity? What is the point to this torture?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 09:56 pm
@Glennn,
So true! Just on the topic of starvation. https://www.worldhunger.org/world-hunger-and-poverty-facts-and-statistics/
Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2019 02:34 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
I'm getting the feeling that you don't care to discuss your god's need to torture lesser beings than itself for an eternity.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2019 03:52 pm
@Glennn,
The bottom line of this kind of questioning is that you want to blame Allah for going into hell & the other bottom line is that you feel like you have ‘One upped’ Allah because you have come up with a logical criticism which Allah himself couldn’t think of.  

Now the Muslim approach to this is actually a very fundamental point of view & not a philosophical one. The fundamental approach that the Muslim has is that Allah introduces himself to us in the Quran by saying “Alhamdulilah” which in English means “All praise and gratitude belongs to Allah” which means everything he does is praise worthy & everything he does is perfect. This is our belief about Allah, he is perfect in every way & everything he does should be appreciated and we should thank him for it. After he tells us this nature of himself he then goes on to say “Rabilalameen” which means he is the master of all people and all nations. Now if we look at the word “master” it means he has complete authority over his slaves. A master can punish slaves, reward them, leave them be etc it is entirely up to the master. Now before Allah even tells us he is the master he already tells us all praise and gratitude belongs to him. So before Allah even tells us he  is a master he tells us he is a praise worthy master. He then goes on to say that he is an unimaginably merciful master.

Now before even questioning about Allah's mercy because that is what the question is addressing the problem is you are thinking of Allah as your God and not as your master. that's the real problem. If you accept the summary of the Quran and not what it wants from people then you accept God as your master and come to terms with the fact that you are a slave. If you can come to terms with that fact and learn to trust him as a master then everything he has done & created has a purpose & there is wisdom behind it.  If you haven’t come to terms that he is your master and has complete authority over you & he is just someone who created you then after that you have the right to question him, to criticize him etc then you have missed the fundamental premise of the Quran.  Muslims don’t ask these questions, why not? Because we have already accepted Allah as our master. 

Now Allah didnt just create a hell to throw people in it, the fact that the Quran is very explicit & graphic in its description of hell is questionable, if the Quran was a book of guidance then why does it go in to so much detail regarding hell?

Have you ever heard of the “Scared Straight Program”? Where teens are messed up or are heading towards a life of crime so they bring someone who has done time in prison & gone down that road before? And how he explains to the youth how he has been there and it isn’t fun & it is glorified and tells you the consequences of his criminal actions & the whole idea of it is to make you think “Well I am not going down this road because I know somebody who has” well Hell fire hasn’t happened yet but Allah will give us a picture of it as though it is happening right now, the point of which is too scare us straight.  It is actually a mercy from Allah that he has told us about hell, whether you like it or not it is there, whether you come to terms with it or not it is there, whether you are comfortable or not regarding it, it is still there.

Allah's mercy is to let us know here is what we can do in order to avoid it. That is Allah's mercy, instead of saying “Well I do not want to believe in this faith because it has a concept of hell. Whether you like that concept or not will not change reality. All we can do regarding hell is learn how to protect ourselves. Allah himself says he didn't create us for hell, he says “except for those whom your master shows mercy” & that is why he created them so he can show them mercy.

One of my favorite quotes from the Quran is “What is God going to get out of punishing you?” What will he do punish you? He doesn’t want to punish you. Our image of God is one that wants to be merciful and not one that wants to punish. That is not the image of Allah we gain upon reading the Quran, even the mention of punishment itself is an act of mercy from Allah. 
 

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