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Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 09:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
You're not missing anything.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 09:26 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

Frank may be a lot of things, he's no phoney. He is consistent in everything he says.

G*D evolves, too. He's changed his mind many times He was first a G*D of the law, then he was a G*D of Sacrifice, then a G*D of forgiveness. He changed his mind about the flood, He changed his mind about the sacrifice of Issac, He changed his mind about the law: Christ announced he was tearing down the Temple, the that there was only one law - treat others as you'd be treated and believe.


Please look up the word "anthropomorphism".
It appears as if you realize how Holy God is. However, you do not realize how consistent God is through the Old and New Testament.
The Hebrew Bible ends with a big " to be continued" implication to it. No, God has not kept us in suspense for 2400 years. Messiah has come, set up His Church, and is working within His Church. Messiah will come down to earth, the Jews will recognise their Messiah at that time, and the kingdom will be established on earth (as it is already in heaven).
As for Frank, I give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't know his motives. I find him to be one of the easier people to talk with.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 02:53 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
He's consistent and even when we disagee (on religion, specifically) his argument is clear and understandable and most of all, consistent.

How do you square his disgust with the 'God of the Bible' and his remembered ecstasy when serving as Acolyte at Mass. (in the Vatican no less, IIRC?)

Why won’t he say what ‘ changed his mind' about former beliefs?
If you accept his brush off of 'I just grew up one day', I see no reason for your support of ‘consistency' in his position. But I suppose one can be consistent in vain repetition, if that’s what you mean.

I’ve been wrong about some of my past beliefs and my actions due to them. I don’t feel anything like pride or joy when I remember them. Just relief and thankfulness that I escaped them.

On one hand he says he genuinely wants to talk about God but if you actually engage with him on that subject, you are put on ignore. Fact is, I haven’t even found believers who will engage beyond repeating dogma on that subject, so maybe Frank is not really that different, just has his own dogma of 'I don’t know and neither do you'.

There may be a legitimate reason for Frank’s apparent inconsistency on these things, but as it stands, it sounds phony to me.

Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 03:00 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Frank mocks people for guessing and then GUESSES that the God of the Christian bible is a psychopath…he’s just a hypocrite…
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 09:45 pm
@Leadfoot,
It is phony. There are two types of atheists in my experience (the agnosticism thing doesn't ring true).
1. "I prayed to God for X (usually to save a loved one's life), and he let me down."
2. Those actively in rebellion against God.

Category 1, I usually have a fair amount of pity for. They have a sad experience, and they are angry and bitter. I would prefer such people just have a shouting match with me, let all their anger out, and finally have a talk on why God doesn't let us live forever.

Category 2, on the other hand, has layers upon layers of excuses. The reason they cannot be convinced is they already know the truth, but they don't want a part of it. The angry mourning walk away from God, but they can be cheered up; no such approach can be done to those who hate God. They know full-well that God exists, but publicly admitting this means they have to answer for their past and their rebellion. So they concoct lie after lie, like a child screaming "You can't make me." They're correct, I can't make them. Nor will I. They're already being made to do things. 99.9% of category 2 are statists. You think God is authoritarian? God's like a weird bipolar boyfriend/girlfriend who speaks conflicting truths about theology, hoping we'll decide on our own. But mankind in rebellion with God? They always act the same way. They push people.
https://hoshanarabbah.org/blog/2014/04/11/the-god-of-statism-satanism/
Quote:
Furthermore, controlling groups or ideologies work best when believers are taught to use brainwashing techniques themselves. That’s right. In almost every case, the controlled end up controlling.


I've seen everything from dragoon-like intimidation, coercion, or outright abuse to mind games and manipulation. Sometimes they even pose as religious types, while pushing you away from God. But those at odds with God always use control against those who understand God. Who love God.

If he used to be working under the Vatican, this actually makes perfect sense.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 01:22 am
@Jasper10,
The atheist is quite happy to accept there is no God.That individual therefore has to accept that man is responsible for all atrocities ever committed throughout history.

The moment the possibility of a God is mentioned, even the Christian God of the bible then it’s that God’s fault in their opinion.That sounds like the Devils argument to me if the atheist is wrong about God and the Devil ….If you are going to blame someone for something then they need to exist first!!…..give them a chance….LOL

As far as the Theist and Agnostic is concerned, a belief or non belief in a particular God is in some sense irrelevant if there is a God and the Devil according to the Christian bible for it states that even the demons believe and shudder…James 2:19….

Something else is relevant according to the Christian bible.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 05:51 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

It is phony. There are two types of atheists in my experience (the agnosticism thing doesn't ring true).



You've really gotta be getting less terrified of your god, Bulma, although I certainly understand why you are terrified of it.

Anyway...I want you to know that I understand that "the agnosticism thing doesn't ring true for you."

It cannot. Essentially "the agnosticism thing" is acknowledging the plain truth...that we do not KNOW that any gods exist.

The last thing in the world someone like you can do...is to acknowledge the truth on that matter. You are in deadly fear that your god will punish you severely for doing that.

I do pity you. It is the decent thing to do.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 07:29 am
@Jasper10,
Frank and I have a long and spirited history of disagreeing about the nature of G*D, going back literally 20+ years to Abuzz. He's never been anything but civil and arguing honestly. He's never stooped to ad hominem tactics. He's much more sinned against than sinning.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 07:32 am
@Jasper10,
Whether there is supreme being or not, all atrocities are the product of men their freewill.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 07:59 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

Whether there is supreme being or not, all atrocities are the product of men their freewill.


First, thanks for your comments about our interactions over the years, Bobsal. We do go way back.

As for this comment that I just quoted above: Kudos. Very true. That is a sentiment atheists, theists, and agnostics should be able to agree on totally. (Some may disagree with the use of the word "men", but I understand how you meant it.)
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 09:21 am
@bobsal u1553115,
With regard to your statement …. …”all atrocities are the product of men their free will”…….ok……..so in what way is ANY God …even the God of the Christian bible if they exist, responsible for these atrocities?
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 11:00 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
He's never stooped to ad hominem tactics.


Hypocrisy is more his style.

You can’t say you want to talk about God and then close your ears to it without being a phony hypocrite. Then he bleats about others being afraid of their God but he himself flees if anything is said about God that makes him uncomfortable.

And I have always been civil with him, he is without excuse, at least with me.


NealNealNeal
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 11:39 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
He's never stooped to ad hominem tactics.


Hypocrisy is more his style.

You can’t say you want to talk about God and then close your ears to it without being a phony hypocrite. Then he bleats about others being afraid of their God but he himself flees if anything is said about God that makes him uncomfortable.

And I have always been civil with him, he is without excuse, at least with me.

Frank is quite civil.
In the past I have argued with God for people like Frank (good people in human terms).
However, it is God Who is the judge.








Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 01:14 pm
@NealNealNeal,
'Know ye not that you shall judge angels?'

Be sure to read the context around that quote.
NealNealNeal
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 01:53 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

'Know ye not that you shall judge angels?'

Be sure to read the context around that quote.


Chapter 6 deals with disputes amongst Christians being settled by leaders of the church instead of the civil courts. 1 Cor.. Chapter 6.
I used to argue with God because emotionally I did not want people to go to hell (like Abraham pleading to God about Sodom). Now, I pray solely for their salvation.
As for verse 3, I don't know what angels I will be judging.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 04:53 pm
@NealNealNeal,
There were no 'church leaders' in that time. Christianity was an underground movement then (and still is IMO). The 'Saints' Paul is talking to and about are just the followers of Christ. 'Sainthood' as most people (including 'believers') conceive of it, are just bs titles conferred by the Vatican.
You can’t say ' God will judge' and then buy that bogus sainthood conferred by men.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 6:1-3 KJV
[1] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? [2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? [3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


To relegate ALL responsibility of judgment to God is a cop out.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 04:54 pm
@Jasper10,
What would be the point of giving freewill and responsibly to mankind if all there was to it would have been set out a bunch of robots and just snap away any possible disaster? If we are created in his image, we have to have freewill and culpability for ungodly acts.

The bag of sins to deal with are ones we each carry individually.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 05:06 pm
@Leadfoot,
I have never read of anything Frank has ever said that was worse than "in kind". In my personal experience with him, over 20 years, he's been spirited, but honest and a gentleman.

My experience with you has been, other than maybe some occasions some sorta "woooo" posts, that generally you are nice enough.

I wouldn't ask of him, nor would he - gentleman as he is - give me a suggestion to not "like" someone else.

I know that as nice as you are, you didn't mean to ask that of me, either.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2021 01:16 am
@bobsal u1553115,
I would agree that we all have free will unless we accept that we are robots and have concluded that as good and bad are the same then there is no difference at all in the 4 off logic output possibilities of 1.good is good…2.good is bad..3.bad is good …4.bad is bad…The Christian bible as I have said gives a warning in Isaiah 5:20 about only adopting items 2. and 3 (binary logic for izzythepush) in our reasonings.

You didn’t answer the question I asked though……in what way is any God…even the Christian God of the bible responsible for all the atrocities that have ever happened throughout history?….You have said (and Frank has agreed surprisingly) that man is responsible for all atrocities that have ever happened throughout history…
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2021 05:47 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
My experience with you has been, other than maybe some occasions some sorta "woooo" posts, that generally you are nice enough.

I wouldn't ask of him, nor would he - gentleman as he is - give me a suggestion to not "like" someone else.

I know that as nice as you are, you didn't mean to ask that of me, either.


And you too are a nice guy Bob. I don’t think I’ve heard an unkind word from you.

But this has nothing to do with who is nice or liking anyone. I am certainly not asking anyone to not like Frank, nor anyone else. I like Frank, even though the feeling is not mutual. Nor am I asking him to 'like' me.

I take the subject of 'God' seriously, and Frank says he does as well, and wants to talk about it, although he apparently hasn’t found anyone willing to do so (beyond dogma, God is all powerful, bla, bla).

If you think it unkind of me to point out that he is being inconsistent when faced with someone who is willing to seriously talk about God, that is your prerogative. Personally, I think it would be unkind and unChristian of me not to challenge his dogma that he doesn’t know if God exists and that there is no unambiguous evidence that He does.

And There never will be for him if he keeps his ears plugged up.

But I do wish you would elaborate on what you mean by my 'wooooo wooooo' posts.

 

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