How is this definition of "belief"?

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

You see how problematic it is...it is not even possible to make a sentence with logic about it as it already needs exist to start existing...its not just preposterous it is logically impossible !

Of course it is. I was just having fun with the idea.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

The only reason that people are willing to go along with the subjective argument which leads to an infinite regress, is they don't understand the problem clearly enough and so they don't see it as ending up with an infinite regress. You do Fil and so that is why you're forced to go for the only other option a 'Prime Mover' but Fil if you were clear about the problems with the 'Prime Mover' option you would not be able to choose that either. That is why reality is ineffable.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Your advise has no meaning; this is a public forum where opinions are welcomed.

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@igm,

"Prime mover" like gods are meaningless. You can believe it, but can't prove any of it! I like to error on the side of dictionary definitions and what I observe to be "my" reality.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

"Prime mover" like gods are meaningless. You can believe it, but can't prove any of it! I like to error on the side of dictionary definitions and what I observe to be "my" reality.

Ok... you make it sound like I am for it... I'm not, nor am I for the infinite regress that your argument ends up with.. reality is neither.. and that is why it must remain ineffable.

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@igm,

No you don't need to assert any Gods for a prime mover a very good recent example is Multiverse in String Theory as an alternative...a Cyclic reality model as in Big Bounce does just as good...
You are forgetting that Infinity can be seen in 2 different possible ways..an open infinity is problematic because there is indeed infinite regress without ever reaching a primal cause, but a cyclic model, a LOOP, gives you the simulation of infinity, with time inside the object which is looping, itself as a whole, not moving... time emerges inside it and not along side it.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Multiverse is better... and I wasn't asserting the need for gods.

Is the prime mover permanent?

And for the big bounce how about, 'the arrow of time problem'?

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@igm,

I added a line to the post above.

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@igm,

My view prime mover is first order reality a bit like "Matrix"..I don't even want to call it "material" as "material" is already what you or Fresco Cyr or J would call a 2 order subjective phenomena...but prime order reality is everything frozen in a 4D film...it does not move nor grows...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

My view prime mover is first order reality a bit like "Matrix"..I don't even want to call it "material" as "material" is already what you or Fresco Cyr or J would call a 2 order subjective phenomena...but prime order reality is everything frozen in a 4D film...it does not move nor grows...

If it doesn't move how can it change from something that hasn't created... to a creator?

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@igm,

Penrose is recently coming up with a cyclic model where maximum entropy falls when all turns out into energy...there you have a Big Bounce working without problems with the time arrow or the 2 law of thermodynamics...

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@igm,

"Creator" is a subjective classification for whom phenomenally inside the frozen film is experiencing relations in 2 order category with time and interactions going on...Reality out of time is all eternal...there is no outside around it there is no emptiness around it even space is inside...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Penrose is recently coming up with a cyclic model where maximum entropy falls when all turns out into energy...there you have a Big Bounce working without problems with the time arrow or the 2 law of thermodynamics...

Does the reality that bounces need a prime mover? If not isn't it just an infinite regress of bounces?

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@igm,

Yes an infinite regress of Bounce, the looping, which is FINITE in diversity...it repeats...thus it is countable...it is ONE OBJECT ! Time in that sense is illusory...the prime mover is the all set... nothing moves but as the set describes its subsets and the relations between them it seams something is moving when seen from the inside...when you yourself, as a sub set, seam to be relating with other stuff...causes and effects, the phenomena are all described in it...the metaphor of a 4D film is the best I can come up with to speak about it...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

"Creator" is a subjective classification for whom phenomenally inside the frozen film is experiencing relations in 2 order category...Reality out of time is all eternal...there is no outside around it there is no emptiness around it even space is inside...

That doesn't answer my question in a way that I can comprehend. You are saying that a prime mover that is permanent doesn't need to change from a pre-creator into a creator... I don't see your explanation of how this can happen or doesn't need to happen.

What does the prime mover use - in order to create - part of itself or not part of itself?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Yes an infinite regress of Bounce which is FINITE in diversity...it repeats...thus it is countable...it is ONE OBJECT ! Time in that sense is illusory...the prime mover is the all set nothing moves but as the set describes its subsets and the relations between them it seams something is moving when seen from the inside...when you yourself as a sub set seams to be relating with other stuff...causes and effects, the phenomena are all described in it...the metaphor of a $D film is the best I can come up with to speak about it...

It sounds problematic to me... I'll stick with ineffable... because no one can explain to me how it isn't problematic.

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@igm,

It does not create anything...you certainly hear me saying often before "God" is dead powerless...I explained that creation is a wording which makes sense from the inside as we experience the passage of time but all times exist along space/time...they all past present and future ensemble in the "Matrix"...if it is a finite looping reality with all times and simulations of movement looping, the object is a fixed set which does not move and that seen from the inside seams to create everything, because you experience time...

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@igm,

Thanks Fil... I'll leave it there... I will of course continue to read your replies to me and others as and when you reply... Smile

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@igm,

I can agree to "ineffable."

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@igm,

Give it another reading its not that hard....you see the key word is that such object is finite in degrees of freedom and they all are fulfilled...and thus not truly infinetly countable non stop...it loops...if you look at it as a collection of well described space time sequence of events you can clearly see it is not ineffable foundationally, it is a thing with a given size and nature...

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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