How is this definition of "belief"?

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
I think where it gets muddled the most is primarily in the areas of religion and politics.

In the case of religion, beliefs are validated simply by the emotional reward of believing in them. If we call 'god' a conceptual frame, it is pretty clear that there is no corresponding conceptual identity. When that is the case, it is a matter of pure imagination.

In the case of religion, "beliefs" are just guesses about the unknown.

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@Frank Apisa,

Blind guesses at that!

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@Cyracuz,

Quote:

O5: IMO, the virtue of the original definition of belief by Cyracuz at the root of this thread, is that it does not demonize beliefs but shows how they can be useful.

Cyr: That might be because I chose words that have no emotional associations to them. Frame and identity.

Or simply because you harbor no grunge re. beliefs, or towards whoever tried to teach you values in your childhood. I always wondered if the "no-belief" crowd wasn't just motivated by some Oedipus complex or another.

At the same time, I also like your definition because it indicates that beliefs can be difficult to challenge, since we tend to remain within their framework even when we "observe" the world: a conceptual frame in which an individual arranges his perceptions.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 says "Whatever works for you but being savvy and careful is choosing assumptions seems important to me."
This may apply to many endeavors, but don't you feel that there are tacit assumptions too deep for inspection and too deep (as taken-for- granted cultural presuppositions") to be able to choose between?

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

Olivier5: Whatever works for you but being savvy and careful is choosing assumptions seems important to me.

JLN: don't you feel that there are tacit assumptions too deep for inspection and too deep (as taken-for- granted cultural presuppositions") to be able to choose between?

o5: I have spent some time on another thread trying to convince a "no-belief" believer of something like that. I call these tacit assumptions mind axioms. Belief in our senses, space, time, self... These you can't live without and remain mentally sane for very long. They are fundamental, and probably instinctive.

But you also speak of tacit cultural assumptiosn. Would you have an example?

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@JLNobody,

I agree; our biology and environment influences our beliefs. An individual who has lived their entire life in a small village without modern conveniences have an entirely different perspective of life from a highly educated individual who has experienced many aspects of knowledge, travel, and wide-ranging social connections.

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@Olivier5,

Is one of your beliefs a belief in God?

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

But that doesn't cover beliefs that correspond to neither phenomena or states, but rather to an intuitive, perhaps instinctive need to feel connected.

Not sure what you mean, exactly. A person's need to feel connected may be their motivation to have beliefs, but I think that's a different animal from the belief itself. I may be misunderstanding you, of course.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

Is one of your beliefs a belief in God?

If you are actually asking "Is one of your beliefs that a God exists?"...

...then the "belief" will almost certainly be a blind guess...

...unless, of course, the god speaks to the person.

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Surely a belief is either correct or not even if it is not known whether it is either. If this is the case then if the belief is incorrect then it must be a delusion... do we want to view the world through a veil of delusion... the fewer beliefs the better and if there are any let them be subtle not gross. Beliefs mean either uncertainty or delusion? Direct experience on the other hand is a firm foundation not destabilized by those beliefs that remain either by necessity or ignorance.

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@igm,

Quote:

Is one of your beliefs a belief in God?

Nope. I don't have the honor of knowing God. How about you?

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@Olivier5,

Nope!

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@igm,

You wrote,

Quote:

Surely a belief is either correct or not even if it is not known whether it is either.

Agreed: If both sides cannot provide sufficient evidence to the contrary, a belief is either correct or not.

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@igm,

Quote:

Surely a belief is either correct or not even if it is not known whether it is either.

Or undecidable... Even God may not know everything.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Surely a belief is either correct or not even if it is not known whether it is either.

Or undecidable... Even God may not know everything.

Yes, but if undecidable then as I said above one has to live with a worldview based on uncertainty that may be a delusion but is definitely uncertain.

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@Olivier5,

That is a good point. Very often, the only way a new fact changes a belief is in a slight semantic tweaking. Big bang flies in the face of creation myth. Throw in the word 'symbolism', and it works again. We realize that the two do not speak to the same issue at all. Unless we are unwilling to adjust our frames, which would make us delusional extremists, I guess.

Quote:

I always wondered if the "no-belief" crowd wasn't just motivated by some Oedipus complex or another.

This made me laugh. I think the 'no-belief' stance is a reaction to the way some people just uncritically believes whatever they want.

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@Olivier5,

I think the basic problem with this premise is that people who can't provide irrefutable evidence to the contrary still "believe it to be true." In some cases, even when evidence to the contrary is provided, they still believe it to be true.

That's the reason why I say that religion and politics are difficult subjects to agree upon even when "proof" is provided.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I think the 'no-belief' stance is a reaction to the way some people just uncritically believes whatever they want.

What? How about direct experience? How about mindfulness?

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@FBM,

Yes. I just meant that your propositions does not include beliefs that are not about phenomena or states.
By "a person's need to feel connected" I meant relating to things that are inevitable in life, such as both mental and physical pain, the great questions of meaning and purpose, and so on. Not all answers can be found in science. Some do not exist, which probably means the question sucks...

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@igm,

igm wrote:

Surely a belief is either correct or not even if it is not known whether it is either. If this is the case then if the belief is incorrect then it must be a delusion... do we want to view the world through a veil of delusion... the fewer beliefs the better and if there are any let them be subtle not gross. Beliefs mean either uncertainty or delusion? Direct experience on the other hand is a firm foundation not destabilized by those beliefs that remain either by necessity or ignorance.

I do not agree.

A guess is either correct or incorrect. If a guess is correct...it is just correct. If a guess is incorrect...it is just incorrect. No delusion involved in that part at all.

If the guess is not recognized as a guess...that has an element of delusion.

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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