How is this definition of "belief"?

@FBM,

There's reality up to the limits of our ABILITY to sense it and interpret it; they are all SUBJECTIVE unless it can be perceived the same way by everybody. Objective is when the observed event or thing doesn't change with the observer.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

So you suggesting if we both look at an onion n I see French fries n you see olive oil we both have French fries n olive oil instead of an onion ? Yes or no please ?

1 Reply

Considerations about grammar are ridiculous as both sides need use it...not that I expect they will get the subtle point being made...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Whose talking about "onions?" We're talking about subjective and objective.
You just can't "SEE IT." If an object is seen without any subjective interpretation of it.....it's ________. The perception of it doesn't change with the observer.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Sides?
Is this a war now?
As expected, my point about language and grammar is lost on you.

And what is this you've taken to... not replying to me directly, just replying in general. Is that because you have me on ignore?
What a complete joke your behavior is, Fil. What a ridiculous personage you present on this forum. And what a tragedy that you cannot see it yourself....

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@Cyracuz,

He's one dense individual; no matter how many ways we try to explain it, he just doesn't "get it."

He's stuck with studying Philosophy. LOL

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Let me tray again to make myself clear, as it seems neither Fil nor Frank have understood what I am saying in this thread.

"Objectivity" is what it revolves around.

That which is "objective" exists freely and independently of the feelings, opinions and perceptions of any sentient subject.

There is a word that is omitted from that definition. The full wording would be "That which is 'objective' appears to exist freely and independently of the feelings, opinions and perceptions of any sentient subject.

This extra word is omitted because it is understood by everyone that we only ever experience our own subjective feelings, opinions and perceptions, and so appearance is all we are speaking of.

We have the concept "objective reality" because we have compared experiences and deduced that there is a shared aspect to what each of us can subjectively determine exists.

We have some very strong indications that there is such an "objective reality". We have some pretty persuasive arguments in favor of it.

But we do not have definite proof.
The very argument itself is defined so that proof is an impossibility.
And if it cannot be proven, it is assumption.

Even the fact that water boils at 100°c at sea level would be considered an assumption if we could not test it.

This is what both Frank and Fil either refuse to acknowledge or simply fail to grasp.
This is a thread about the definition of belief, and examining what is knowable and what cannot be known is part of the topic.

So, the criteria for something to be called fact is that it must be verifiable. The claim that "reality is objective" is not verifiable, and therefore it is an assumption.

Whatever REALITY actually IS...it IS. It does not matter how it arrived there...or what processes were involved. Whatever REALITY actually IS...it IS.

IT OBJECTIVELY IS.
Sorry you are unwilling to get that, but suggesting that our disagreement has to do with my lack of understanding is self-serving absurdity.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

There's reality up to the limits of our ABILITY to sense it and interpret it; they are all SUBJECTIVE unless it can be perceived the same way by everybody. Objective is when the observed event or thing doesn't change with the observer.

Yeah...our perceptions of REALITY are subjective. I think that has been conceded a few dozens times in this thread.

REALITY...(What IS)...IS OBJECTIVE. It has to be.

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@Frank Apisa,

If reality is objective, why is it that we are interpreting our belief in subjective terms?

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@Frank Apisa,

I can only refer you to the post you replied to...

One sentence in particular:

Even the fact that water boils at 100°c at sea level would be considered an assumption if we could not test it.

The objectivity of that particular claim comes from the fact that anyone can boil water and see for themselves.

Similarly, no one can verify that "reality objectively is", so no one can assert with certainty that it is true.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

If reality is objective, why is it that we are interpreting our belief in subjective terms?

What do the two have to do with each other?

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I can only refer you to the post you replied to...

One sentence in particular:

Even the fact that water boils at 100°c at sea level would be considered an assumption if we could not test it.

The objectivity of that particular claim comes from the fact that anyone can boil water and see for themselves.

Similarly, no one can verify that "reality objectively is", so no one can assert with certainty that it is true.

Sorry you are unable to see that whatever REALITY is...it simply is.

And that being the case, it is objectively what is.

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@Frank Apisa,

You wrote,

Quote:

What do the two have to do with each other?

Almost everything we have been discussing. It's about "belief," the topic of this thread.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
What do the two have to do with each other?

Almost everything we have been discussing. It's about "belief," the topic of this thread.

Hello! REALITY may not be related to belief in any way. Try finally to grasp that, ci. You are simply asserting gratuituously that it is.

My point is...your considerations about REALITY...everyone's subjective considerations about REALITY...

...MAY NOT IMPACT ON REALITY ON IOTA.

Can you truly not get that?

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@Frank Apisa,

Spare me your dogmas. If you don't have a persuasive argument that doesn't ignore the accepted meaning of objective completely, I will conclude that you have no interest in adhering to the same rules of language as the rest of us.

Again, Frank, if you want to know why your assertion doesn't work, check out the concept of objectivity, particularly it's widely accepted controversial status.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You wrote,

Quote:

My point is...your considerations about REALITY...everyone's subjective considerations about REALITY...

...MAY NOT IMPACT ON REALITY ON IOTA.

You say you don't have beliefs, that they are guesses, but you continue to insist you are right.

You can't even see your own contradictions!

You must live in confusion all the time. LOL

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Sounds good to me, and with the proviso that our perceptions are limited by our biology and environment.

Biology, because what we use, our brains, can misfire, and our perception of what we "see" can be misinterpreted or it can be an illusion.

Environment includes everything that includes culture, religious belief, education, exposure to the "outside" world, communication, family and friends, media, access to transportation, location, and health care. There's probably a lot more in our environment that I can't think of that influences our belief and perception.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Spare me your dogmas. If you don't have a persuasive argument that doesn't ignore the accepted meaning of objective completely, I will conclude that you have no interest in adhering to the same rules of language as the rest of us.

Again, Frank, if you want to know why your assertion doesn't work, check out the concept of objectivity, particularly it's widely accepted controversial status.

What IS...IS. It is immutable.

It is as objective as anything can be.

My assertion "works" because it is true.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
My point is...your considerations about REALITY...everyone's subjective considerations about REALITY...

...MAY NOT IMPACT ON REALITY ON IOTA.

You say you don't have beliefs, that they are guesses, but you continue to insist you are right.

You can't even see your own contradictions!

You must live in confusion all the time. LOL

I am insisting I am right about this...that I KNOW it is objective...

...because I am correct and because it has to objective.

Every fiber of my body and mind wants me to say "I really do not know" or "I am just guessing"...but I cannot in this case, because I do know. REALITY...what is...HAS TO BE OBJECTIVE.

I am not afraid to say "I do not know." As I mentioned earlier, I probably use those words more than anyone on the Internet...and certainly more than anyone in this forum.

You, ci, have trouble saying "I do not know"...and so do so many of the people who are in difference with me on this. I do not remember ever hearing Fresco use those words, as a "for instance."

What, if I may ask for a guess from you, would my motives be in this?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

It works for you, but you can't "prove it." Why is that you don't have beliefs, and you only have guesses, but it makes you think you are correct?

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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